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Date: 30 Jul 2007 20:09:12
From:
Subject: pls help with layout information
1. intend to drill for skid/snap.

for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
reaction? (fury pearl)

for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)





 
Date: 03 Aug 2007 15:23:40
From: Mark
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Aug 3, 4:31 pm, hamma...@bda.net wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:13:47 -0700, Mark <twobowl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> thanks for the info Mark, very much appreciated, how about moving into
> the dfw area and giving lessons :)

No need to move - I've already told you everything I know :)

If I were to set up a four ball arsenal, assuming a typical house
shot, I'd have something like the following:

A symetrical core solid coverstock ball. This ball would likely come
from the medium or high price point in a given manufacturers lineup.
For Roto this would be the solid Horizon or the Epic Odyssey. 5x3 or
4x5 drilling. This is the benchmark ball that you can use 90% of the
time if you have too.

My next ball would be a partical pearl drilled for length and angular
backen. Partical pearls are rapidly replacing pure pearls as my
favorite coverstocks. From Roto this would be the Mystic or the Venus.
This ball gets a 4x4 or 4x5 layout and is the one I use when scoring
is high and I have room and free hook to the right.

For my third ball I tend to go for a weaker ball in case things get
dry so in my case this would be a Neptune (a weak pearl). This is the
dry lane ball or the one you go to when things are squirly and you
need to keep it in play and scratch something out. It gets a 5-6" pin
placement and is used rarely. Folks that worry more about oil or
getting the ball to hook would drill up a solid partical ball (from
Roto either the new Epic Quest or the Epic Battle). I tend to drill my
oil balls 4x4.

Fourth ball is the plastic for spares. I happen to have a Spare Tire
which looks cool but any polyester ball will do.

Those basic balls get you there on most conditions without spending a
fortune. Every manufacturer has similar stuff, I'm using the Roto
examples as it's what I throw and the stuff I'm most familiar with.

Balls 4 and 5 are going to be condition specific balls. Perhaps a pure
pearl or a weaker solid. Just depends what types of shots and
conditions you are worried about matching up to. For me, I only bring
3 very different balls to a league session (not counting the
polyester). If I can't line up it's usually me and not lack of
equipment :-)

Mark



 
Date: 02 Aug 2007 20:13:47
From: Mark
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Aug 2, 11:59 am, hamma...@bda.net wrote:

I forgot to add -- the problem with the X x X layout description
method is that there are a lot of pin / CG placements that can give
you the same distances from PAP. When you see a descriptor of this
type it's a reasonable assumption that the pin is in the "Safe Zone".
This is a line drawn from your PAP through the ring finger. Placing
the Pin above this line prevents the track from hitting the gripping
holes.

That's not to say that the Pin cannot be placed below the line but
some folks will have trouble with the track hitting the grip holes if
this is done. A weight hole can help with this if it's a problem.

For many decent players the following layouts are about all you need
to know:

Full leverage or stacked leverage (3 3/8 x 3 3/8) - gives a medium to
early roll with medium length and maximum flare potential. I would
only use this layout for someone with very little hand (revs) or
someone that is speed dominant. Leverage was popular when cores were
less dynamic; about 20 years ago. However, "leverage" sounds cool and
is associated with "big hook" so players still ask for it. I haven't
thrown a leverage drilling in about 15 years as balls with this
pattern (for me) tend to flare too much and give up energy too early
resulting in hook out and weak hit.

4x4 and 4x5 This is a great drilling for most everyone. Pin will be
around the ring finger and the cg stacked or pushed toward the grip
center. This is the drilling I would use for 80% of our customers when
I helped in a pro shop as it provides decent length, good backend and
good flare. Great on a house shot and many other conditions. I drill
about 40% of my gear this way.

5x3 pin under bridge, cg kicked toward PAP and weight hole near PAP to
control flare. An excellent control drilling with good length, good
backend and less flare than the 4" placement. I got turned onto this
drilling by a friend with Ebonite and still drill about 40% of my own
equipment this way. Bit more length compared to a 4x4.

5 - 5.5 " pin over bridge with cg near grip center. More length than
pin under bridge and can tend toward skid/flip with some balls. I
usually have a couple like this for condition specific opportunities.
Lately I've had a few more of these than normal as conditions in the
places I bowl are a bit dry.

Pin-axis and 6" pin placements. Control drillings that are not used
very much for league players. Pin axis is great on control balls for
sitting on the oil line. 6" on weaker shell balls can let you play in
the track area on dry and get some scores while others much further
left with stronger equipment. I have one ball like this currently (a
Neptune) and it's great when called for. Last pin-axis ball I drilled
was a Red Pulse a long time ago.

I tend to not use any faddish or "exotic" drillings as they are often
unpredictable and most of us just don't need anythng besides the
basics. I almost always opt for control over hook or skid/flip but
that's me. It is fun to throw a boomer ball every now and then :-)

As Tony pointed out I throw 100% RotoGrip and have for the last 4+
years. Great stuff at good price points and every ball has a purpose
in the line up. I'm not associated with the company in a formal way
but used to live in Utah and have some friends that work for Storm /
Roto. I've tended to use this stuff ever since Storm came on the scene
in a big way in the early 1990s

BTW, one of the common mistakes that decent players make is having too
many balls available. You really only need a basic 3-4 ball arsenal to
score on most any condition. It is far more important to figure out
where the high scoring line is on a pair than to have the perfect
pellet. Ball reaction is important but getting lined up and making
good shots is, and always will be, more so.

Of course I say that having something like 30 balls in the basement so
do as I say not as I do :-)

You can see a portion of my RotoGrip arsenal at the following link
which is hosted on the Team Internet web site. I need to update the
arsenal pics as some of the newer additions are not shown (SD73,
Odyssey, Mystic, Neptune)

http://bowl-team-internet.com/pictures/mark/Bowling0007.html

Hope some of that stuff was useful. Don't hesitate to expreiment and
find the layouts that work well for you but I suggest starting with
some tried and true basics.

Mark







  
Date: 03 Aug 2007 15:31:04
From:
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:13:47 -0700, Mark <twobowlers@aol.com > wrote:

thanks for the info Mark, very much appreciated, how about moving into
the dfw area and giving lessons :). i am going to try the 5.5 pin
over bridge with cg towards grip center on the next ball, then i will
try the 5x3 pin under bridge with cg towards pap.

i agree, too many bowling balls can be distracting, in the distance
past (early 90's) i owned over 30, but on leaque nite only 3 made the
trip, a teal rhino pro polished with finesse-it, a green quantum, and
a columbia blue dot for my fav pin :), and on most nights only 2 saw
any use. i am now trying to find the 3 that will make the trip each
time out. My ave was 186 during one year and the next year it was
187, then job requirements and after that a physical problem put my
bowling on hold for over 10 yrs. i attempted to try it again last
year, i was shocked (and lost) at the changes in equipment and
terminology, but i ain't givin' up :).

i intend to compensate for my loss of strength and flexibility with
knowledge of the game, and craftiness (LOL). this is not the first
topic on which you have been willing to share your knowledge and
experience with me and i greatly appreciate it. best wishes...keep em
on da lanes...hamma


 
Date: 01 Aug 2007 19:57:02
From: Mark
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Aug 1, 10:05 pm, hamma...@bda.net wrote:
> what is the second number for a
> symmetrical core, if i see 4x4 is it saying the cg is 4 in from the
> pap (the first number being 4in pin from pap)?

Yes. A 4x4 means the pin and cg are both 4" from the PAP. Here is a
link to a website showing one layout method. It's all pretty simple
once you've done it a couple times. Note that he's laying out a
symetric ball but estimated the location of the MB. On a symetric ball
the MB is weak but this is a good method for layout. To be more
precise he'd have to find the actual MB on a DeTerminator which is fun
but not really worth the expense for most players.

http://www.tunedballmotion.com/Example%20Layout.htm

Note that the X x X description method is just one means of describing
a layout. I use it because it's easy and conveys enough information
for these types of discussions. Others will use the degree method and
you can add other information like pin buffer if you want to be really
precise.

Here is a pdf on the DeTerminator:

http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/DeTerminator/DeTmanual.pdf

Note that some balls have cores with very strong MB and have reached
spin times of ~5 seconds (RotoGrip Maximus II core in the Epic Battle
and Epic Saga).

Are you having trouble with slow speed and high revs or is it more of
a problem that you lack axis tilt and axis rotation so the ball hooks
out early? I throw the ball fairly slow and have 300+ revs off my hand
when measured with the bowler's map software. Until I learned how to
get more tilt and rotation I had a heck of a time with the ball losing
energy early. You can't fix that with layout but there are grip
changes that can help.

Best,

Mark




 
Date: 01 Aug 2007 14:28:02
From: Mark
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, hamma...@bda.net wrote:
> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>
> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
> reaction? (fury pearl)
>
> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)

1) CG placement has a very tiny effect on ball movement. CG placement
is best utilized to allow you to place a weight hole in a position
that will allow you to tweak ball dynamics by removing mass from the
core.

2) MB position for maximum backend reaction can be found on the
manufacturer's spec sheet. In general, for an angular backend reaction
the MB is placed just off the thumb.

3) 1 out of 25 balls giving you the desired reaction is a terrible hit
rate. You need to find better people to work with.

4) Remember that there is only so much a layout can do to produce a
reaction. A ball only has hook potential that is released (or not)
based on how you throw it. All things being equal, lane condition plus
your release characteristics and speed have a lot more to do with
producing a specific reaction than the ball layout.

5) When I drilled balls and someone asked me for a ball that goes long
and flips I would first laugh and then drill them an aggressive pearl
with a 4.5 - 5" pin placement with the pin above the fingers. CG ended
up where it needed to be based on the distance from the pin. "Skid/
snap" is probably the second most requested reaction and "stacked
leverage" is the most requested layout. In my experience, people that
start with those reference points often end up dissapointed. It is
much more useful to determine, with your shop proffessional, how to
best attack a certain condition rather than asking for an arbitrary
reaction or layout.

6) Unless you have a ton of hand, a 5.5" pin position is going to give
you length but probably not snap. YMMV.

Good luck,

Mark



  
Date: 02 Aug 2007 12:37:09
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
To add to what Mark posted...

If you start with a 1.6 Liter 4 cylinder engine, there is only so much
you can do to it to get maximum horsepower out of it.

Start with a ball that has a pearl coverstock with a high differential
and at least a medium RG and you are more likely to get the reaction you
desire if drilled properly. Mark is a RotoGrip fan, which is very good
if you desire a skid/flip reaction. RotoGrip makes some of the highest
differential bowling ball cores in the business. Match that with a 4" x
4" drilling pattern and I think you will probably be very happy. My
brother is also a Roto fan. He just got the Mystic at nationals, and
even with it drilled with a 4" X 5" pattern it is one flippy bastard.

Drilling a low to medium differential, low RG ball with a 3-3/8" X
3-3/8" pattern will only maximize the balls hook potential... but, as
Mark has posted, it isn't exactly going to be skid/flippy due to the
week core. By the way, 3-3/8" by 3-3/8" is also known as "stacked leverage"

All of that said, there are advantages and disadvantages to a skid/flip
reaction. The advantage is that more energy is stored and released when
a ball skids and then makes a hard direction change as long as that
change occurs at a point that is not to far from the pocket (generally
45-55' down the lane, but that can vary with lane conditions). The
disadvantage is that ball speed and target accuracy become extremely
critical. Being "off" when throwing skid/flip equipment makes for the
worst over/under reaction possible. I prefer that when I "miss", that I
have a 1-3 pin spare to pick up over a split or washout... for this
reason I have "zero" skid/flip balls in my arsenal. I personally prefer
a hard arcing reaction.

Mark wrote:
> On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, hamma...@bda.net wrote:
>> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>>
>> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
>> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
>> reaction? (fury pearl)
>>
>> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
>> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)
>
> 1) CG placement has a very tiny effect on ball movement. CG placement
> is best utilized to allow you to place a weight hole in a position
> that will allow you to tweak ball dynamics by removing mass from the
> core.
>
> 2) MB position for maximum backend reaction can be found on the
> manufacturer's spec sheet. In general, for an angular backend reaction
> the MB is placed just off the thumb.
>
> 3) 1 out of 25 balls giving you the desired reaction is a terrible hit
> rate. You need to find better people to work with.
>
> 4) Remember that there is only so much a layout can do to produce a
> reaction. A ball only has hook potential that is released (or not)
> based on how you throw it. All things being equal, lane condition plus
> your release characteristics and speed have a lot more to do with
> producing a specific reaction than the ball layout.
>
> 5) When I drilled balls and someone asked me for a ball that goes long
> and flips I would first laugh and then drill them an aggressive pearl
> with a 4.5 - 5" pin placement with the pin above the fingers. CG ended
> up where it needed to be based on the distance from the pin. "Skid/
> snap" is probably the second most requested reaction and "stacked
> leverage" is the most requested layout. In my experience, people that
> start with those reference points often end up dissapointed. It is
> much more useful to determine, with your shop proffessional, how to
> best attack a certain condition rather than asking for an arbitrary
> reaction or layout.
>
> 6) Unless you have a ton of hand, a 5.5" pin position is going to give
> you length but probably not snap. YMMV.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Mark
>


   
Date: 02 Aug 2007 16:08:08
From:
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:37:09 -0700, Tony R Smith
<tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com > wrote:

>To add to what Mark posted...
>
>If you start with a 1.6 Liter 4 cylinder engine, there is only so much
>you can do to it to get maximum horsepower out of it.
>
>Start with a ball that has a pearl coverstock with a high differential
>and at least a medium RG and you are more likely to get the reaction you
>desire if drilled properly. Mark is a RotoGrip fan, which is very good
>if you desire a skid/flip reaction. RotoGrip makes some of the highest
>differential bowling ball cores in the business.

thanks tony, i appreciate your input.


  
Date: 02 Aug 2007 12:49:33
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
Mark wrote:
>
> 1) CG placement
> SNIP

Great Posts Mark.
Many thanks.


   
Date: 02 Aug 2007 10:59:03
From:
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
ditto , great posts Mark, i can't answer the axis tilt and rotation
question but i found a proshop operator that is going to watch me bowl
and try to fill in those type blanks. again, many thanks.

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:49:33 GMT, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote:

>Mark wrote:
>>
>> 1) CG placement
> > SNIP
>
>Great Posts Mark.
>Many thanks.


  
Date: 01 Aug 2007 21:05:40
From:
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
thanks Mark, once again you have come to my rescue in this ng. i am a
very slow learner, witness all the paperweights i have managed to
accumulate in the past 12months :). i understand and agree with the
aggressive pearl comment, recently tried the bwp and it was
continually early, shop pro said my 15mph speed was not enough and my
hand far too much, said i needed a cherry vibe and to stay away from
anything that says "awesome", but I threw my awesome flip and rev for
him and they both look great. i am thinking about trying the pearl
fury but i fear the same result as the bwp. i now understand the
measurements for the asymmetrical, what is the second number for a
symmetrical core, if i see 4x4 is it saying the cg is 4 in from the
pap (the first number being 4in pin from pap)?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:02 -0700, Mark <twobowlers@aol.com > wrote:

>On Jul 30, 9:09 pm, hamma...@bda.net wrote:
>> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>>
>> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
>> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
>> reaction? (fury pearl)
>>
>> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
>> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)
>
>1) CG placement has a very tiny effect on ball movement. CG placement
>is best utilized to allow you to place a weight hole in a position
>that will allow you to tweak ball dynamics by removing mass from the
>core.
>
>2) MB position for maximum backend reaction can be found on the
>manufacturer's spec sheet. In general, for an angular backend reaction
>the MB is placed just off the thumb.
>
>3) 1 out of 25 balls giving you the desired reaction is a terrible hit
>rate. You need to find better people to work with.
>
>4) Remember that there is only so much a layout can do to produce a
>reaction. A ball only has hook potential that is released (or not)
>based on how you throw it. All things being equal, lane condition plus
>your release characteristics and speed have a lot more to do with
>producing a specific reaction than the ball layout.
>
>5) When I drilled balls and someone asked me for a ball that goes long
>and flips I would first laugh and then drill them an aggressive pearl
>with a 4.5 - 5" pin placement with the pin above the fingers. CG ended
>up where it needed to be based on the distance from the pin. "Skid/
>snap" is probably the second most requested reaction and "stacked
>leverage" is the most requested layout. In my experience, people that
>start with those reference points often end up dissapointed. It is
>much more useful to determine, with your shop proffessional, how to
>best attack a certain condition rather than asking for an arbitrary
>reaction or layout.
>
>6) Unless you have a ton of hand, a 5.5" pin position is going to give
>you length but probably not snap. YMMV.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Mark


 
Date: 31 Jul 2007 10:29:01
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
To get a skid/flip reaction, always drill a ball in a 12:00 pattern.
This means that the pin and CG should be equidistant from the PAP. Keep
in mind that because you chose to drill it 5.5" from your PAP that your
overall reaction will be on the weak side. Moving the pin and CG closer
to your PAP (but not past 3-3/8") will make your reaction stronger. The
strongest reaction you can get from a bowling ball is a 3-3/8" X 3-3/8"
drilling. All of this makes 2 assumptions... 1) We are talking about a
symmetrical cored bowling ball, and 2) You are not a full roller. Offset
cored balls are drilled in pretty much the same manner except that the
mass bias now plays a part in your reaction. If you draw a line from the
pin to the mass bias and then draw a line perpendicular to that line
from where you would like your grip center to be out toward your PAP
shifting that line however far above or below you PAP is from the
midplane, you can locate your grip location that will give you your
desired results. I probably didn't describe that very well, but that
information can be found on the web if you choose to drill an offset
cored ball. With asymmetrical cored balls all bets are off. Because of
the dynamics of the asymmetrical core, it is impossible to drill one in
the typical manner. All asymmetrical balls (that I am aware of) have a
drillers clock stamped on the ball and an instruction sheet that tells
you how to drill it for your desired reaction.

hamma101@bda.net wrote:
> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>
> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
> reaction? (fury pearl)
>
> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)
>


  
Date: 31 Jul 2007 17:36:55
From:
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
thanks Tony, i am not a full roller, someone told me to stack the mb
but i am not sure what he meant, i will keep researching, i am in no
rush, i have drilled up over 25 expensive balls, used 2 different
proshops and i only have one ball with the reaction i was seeking and
i think it was an accident.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:29:01 -0700, Tony R Smith
<tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com > wrote:

>To get a skid/flip reaction, always drill a ball in a 12:00 pattern.
>This means that the pin and CG should be equidistant from the PAP. Keep
>in mind that because you chose to drill it 5.5" from your PAP that your
>overall reaction will be on the weak side. Moving the pin and CG closer
>to your PAP (but not past 3-3/8") will make your reaction stronger. The
>strongest reaction you can get from a bowling ball is a 3-3/8" X 3-3/8"
>drilling. All of this makes 2 assumptions... 1) We are talking about a
>symmetrical cored bowling ball, and 2) You are not a full roller. Offset
>cored balls are drilled in pretty much the same manner except that the
>mass bias now plays a part in your reaction. If you draw a line from the
>pin to the mass bias and then draw a line perpendicular to that line
>from where you would like your grip center to be out toward your PAP
>shifting that line however far above or below you PAP is from the
>midplane, you can locate your grip location that will give you your
>desired results. I probably didn't describe that very well, but that
>information can be found on the web if you choose to drill an offset
>cored ball. With asymmetrical cored balls all bets are off. Because of
>the dynamics of the asymmetrical core, it is impossible to drill one in
>the typical manner. All asymmetrical balls (that I am aware of) have a
>drillers clock stamped on the ball and an instruction sheet that tells
>you how to drill it for your desired reaction.
>
>hamma101@bda.net wrote:
>> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>>
>> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
>> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
>> reaction? (fury pearl)
>>
>> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
>> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)
>>


 
Date: 30 Jul 2007 23:49:33
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
> 1. intend to drill for skid/snap.
>
> for symmetrical core i intend to put pin at 5.5" from pap, is the
> second coordinate the cg? what would be the placement for the desired
> reaction? (fury pearl)
>
> for asymmetrical core, i intend to use the same pin position, what are
> the recommended mb and cg locations for skid/snap? (undecided on ball)

Your request is VERY VAGUE.

The best answers to your interrogatives can be found from the WEB SITE
of your ball's manufacturer. Go there, look for the model of your
ball, then see if there's a "recommended layout" link/download.

Otherwise, Go To Your Ball Driller and have him/her watch how you
deliver a ball - only then can a Definte And Accurate Evaluation of
drilling layout be determined.



  
Date: 31 Jul 2007 08:02:39
From: Gotitdone
Subject: Re: pls help with layout information
I agree. Might be best to use a less aggressive ball when going to bowl for
driller or use your spare ball to show the track a little easier.

AL