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Date: 15 Jul 2007 13:47:18
From: Chris TenBraak
Subject: Sport bowling at Nationals
I'm suprised that I have not heard/seen much uproar over the decision that
next years Nationals will be bowled on a Sport Condition. I'm glad I didn't
spend the bucks to go look foolish. It seems to me that Nationals was
always tough enough anyway.

--
Chris






 
Date: 22 Jul 2007 09:49:42
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 22, 9:37 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com > wrote:
> It's hard to be humble, huh? ;-)
>
> Although we didn't do as well as you did, you might have noticed that
> Ross and I also cashed in doubles. Not bad for Ross... his first cash at
> Nationals (He also cashed in Singles).

I must admit I had not noticed the cashes but I have noticed Ross'
improvement over the years. Even if we take out Chip's check, this
year looks to be the best monetary return to date for TI. A lot of
good performances across the board.

It's really fun to see our guys do well at nationals. There is a PR
piece from many years ago where the ABC media guys asked me what I
hoped for from TI. First I simply hopwed it would stay together and be
fun. Then I said we'd like to win an Eagle or two. Well, now "we" have
one and if Chip can win singles again "we" could get some more ;-)

In all honesty, after the 14th in team a few years ago I really didn't
expect anything better but now I'm invigorated to try harder.

Apologies to the board for hijacking this thread (but TI was born in
ASB so it's related).

Mark




 
Date: 21 Jul 2007 09:34:48
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 21, 3:21 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com > wrote:
> What a coincidence... the less attention I pay to your armswing the
> better too! ;-)

It drives Rick (my nats doubles partner) crazy. He keeps taking the
checks though :-)

MC



  
Date: 22 Jul 2007 06:37:36
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
It's hard to be humble, huh? ;-)

Although we didn't do as well as you did, you might have noticed that
Ross and I also cashed in doubles. Not bad for Ross... his first cash at
Nationals (He also cashed in Singles). If you can recall, he bowled with
the girls in his first Nationals and had a league average of 174. He has
come a long way since then. Bowling the PBA experience has definitely
helped his game.

Mark wrote:
> On Jul 21, 3:21 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>> What a coincidence... the less attention I pay to your armswing the
>> better too! ;-)
>
> It drives Rick (my nats doubles partner) crazy. He keeps taking the
> checks though :-)
>
> MC
>


 
Date: 20 Jul 2007 18:56:17
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 18, 2:10 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com > wrote:
> I feel the lack of continuous
> bowling has cause me to have to pay attention to my approach and arm
> swing more than I had to in the past.

The less attention I pay to my armswing the better :-)

Mark



  
Date: 21 Jul 2007 00:21:29
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
What a coincidence... the less attention I pay to your armswing the
better too! ;-)

Mark wrote:
> On Jul 18, 2:10 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>> I feel the lack of continuous
>> bowling has cause me to have to pay attention to my approach and arm
>> swing more than I had to in the past.
>
> The less attention I pay to my armswing the better :-)
>
> Mark
>


 
Date: 19 Jul 2007 18:54:58
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals

We have seen then enemy and they are us.

:-)



  
Date: 20 Jul 2007 02:10:02
From: Robert A. Zanol
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
Mark,

You have hit the nail right on the head. I have never met you, but based on
what I have read in your posts on this forum you have my respect.

I understand human nature. I used to be one of those who always cried about
the shot. But for the last 10 years or so I have not only the knowledge, but
also the understanding that it is never the lanes conditions fault for my
poor performance. Rather it is my refusal or inability to adjust to the
conditions which are the root cause of my poor performances. There is
always a shot, but the question is will I find it? I just wish more bowlers
would have this awakening, but it is way more easier to place the blame
outward away from oneself than it is to accept responsibility for one's
shortcomings. That is human nature.

RAZ
"Mark" <twobowlers@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1184896498.352590.252390@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> We have seen then enemy and they are us.
>
> :-)
>




 
Date: 19 Jul 2007 17:35:57
From: John Sowell
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals

I believe most bowlers can sign up for a sport shot or PBA Experience
League in most areas around the country so they should be able to
prepare for the Sport Shot condition at Nationals next year.

However, i feel it is a BAD decision for them to go to these patterns as
team entries will probably fall to an all time low unless it is not well
advertised at the local level and bowlers go there expecting something
totally different.

I think someone has convinced the USBC to go to these patterns in order
to save the integrity of the sport and maintain some type of civility in
the scores.

What the USBC is overlooking is the plain fact that more than 75% of
their entries at National events are the RECREATIONAL bowlers who are
not going to STAND for tough conditions in their one and only BIG event
of the year.

The calm before the storm is apparently now when MOST bowlers are not
aware of what they are about to go through during the sport conditions
in the upcoming Nationals. The USBC in my opinion will probably get a
wake up call or have to coordinate SPORT shot USBC events at the local
leven in order to prepare for the Nationals.

Bowling currently is in a mess with two camps of thought as far as
patterns are concerned. It is hard to prepare for anything as
everything is divided into many different patterns.

I am currently bowling a PBA Experience League and will bowl four of
them in my local area beginning in September. I urge more people to
bowl the tougher shot league in order to prepare for competition.

Good luck to all going to Nationals next year. Although i enjoy scratch
bowling events, i have never been to the Handicapped Nationals. I have
never been one that would take off for one week, go through the hassles
of getting there, the rigor of getting settled only to bowl 9 games and
then STRUGGLE in a sport pattern that i had not properly practiced for
nor had the proper equipment for.

The above are all just my 2 cents worth.

http://community.webtv.net/GALO/NORTHSANDIEGOCOUNTY



  
Date: 20 Jul 2007 01:47:41
From: Robert A. Zanol
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
>I think someone has convinced the USBC to go to these patterns in order
>to save the integrity of the sport and maintain some type of civility in
>the scores.

Naaaahhhh, you think ?

That is exactly the USBC's mission not just for the nationals, but as the
governing body of all sanctioned bowling in the USA.

it is time for all who claim to love this sport to stop blaming someone else
for what has transpired and left this great game in the mess that it is.
Bowlers have to stop blaming the proprietors for the easy shot and
proprietors have to stop blaming the bowlers. What do I mean?

well of course proprietors put out an easy shot because at sometime or
another we all complain to them when we can't score. They are in business to
make money. if we leave they have no business.

proprietors have to stop blaming the bowlers for the reason they put out an
easy shot. grow some balls because no matter what shot is out people
complain.

Are their truths in each side's stories? YES! But both parties have to stop
it now and do some things that probably neither want to really do. Why?

Because this story plays out just like the rhetorical question "What came
first, the chicken or the egg?" it really doesn't matter whose fault it is,
what matters is what WE are going to do to solve the problem.

If we are to restore integrity to the game we all claim to love then we must
ALL lay down our preconceived ideas and most dearly cherished thoughts on
this subject and go in a new direction. Why? because we all (bowlers and
proprietors) have contributed to the major mess this sport is in right now
and only if we forget past transgressions and join together will we succeed.

In closing I have been both a bowler and a manager of a few bowling centers.
So I have the unique perspective of having been on both ends of the spectrum
in this matter. And let me say this "Both bowlers and proprietors share an
equal blame in the way things are now AND both bowlers and proprietors must
grow up and stand up and do the right thing TOGETHER for the sport they all
claim to love so much.

RAZ

"John Sowell" <GALO@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:18457-46A0036D-24@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
>
> I believe most bowlers can sign up for a sport shot or PBA Experience
> League in most areas around the country so they should be able to
> prepare for the Sport Shot condition at Nationals next year.
>
> However, i feel it is a BAD decision for them to go to these patterns as
> team entries will probably fall to an all time low unless it is not well
> advertised at the local level and bowlers go there expecting something
> totally different.
>
> I think someone has convinced the USBC to go to these patterns in order
> to save the integrity of the sport and maintain some type of civility in
> the scores.
>
> What the USBC is overlooking is the plain fact that more than 75% of
> their entries at National events are the RECREATIONAL bowlers who are
> not going to STAND for tough conditions in their one and only BIG event
> of the year.
>
> The calm before the storm is apparently now when MOST bowlers are not
> aware of what they are about to go through during the sport conditions
> in the upcoming Nationals. The USBC in my opinion will probably get a
> wake up call or have to coordinate SPORT shot USBC events at the local
> leven in order to prepare for the Nationals.
>
> Bowling currently is in a mess with two camps of thought as far as
> patterns are concerned. It is hard to prepare for anything as
> everything is divided into many different patterns.
>
> I am currently bowling a PBA Experience League and will bowl four of
> them in my local area beginning in September. I urge more people to
> bowl the tougher shot league in order to prepare for competition.
>
> Good luck to all going to Nationals next year. Although i enjoy scratch
> bowling events, i have never been to the Handicapped Nationals. I have
> never been one that would take off for one week, go through the hassles
> of getting there, the rigor of getting settled only to bowl 9 games and
> then STRUGGLE in a sport pattern that i had not properly practiced for
> nor had the proper equipment for.
>
> The above are all just my 2 cents worth.
>
> http://community.webtv.net/GALO/NORTHSANDIEGOCOUNTY
>




 
Date: 16 Jul 2007 18:51:00
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 16, 4:03 pm, Scott Thomas <r...@skt300isabowlingscore.com >
wrote:
> According to the information posted at the Stadium, we've been bowling on
> what amounts to a Sport shot for the past three or four years. I'm not sure
> why they're waiting until next year to "certify" it.

I think it has to do with the exact ratios not being aligned with the
sport specification and so they'll tweak it to make it so and then
start using it as PR. It's really a semantic deal as you and Tony
indicated. I expect it has more to do with the USBC wanting to stress
sport conditions as a PR item going forward. I hope it works as I'd
love to bowl sport full time but there isn't anything close enough to
make it worth my time.

> Here's my contribution to the discussion of the difference between the
> normal league shot and the Sport shot: "On a league shot, the penalty for a
> bad shot is often a strike; on a Sport shot (or Nationals shot), the
> penalty for a bad shot is often an open frame."

Good line.

I personally bowl a lot better when it's tough as it makes me focus
where as on a THS I get bored. Also, as a classic tweener (300+
Bowlersmap off the hand revs and medium speed) I can strike plenty but
not quite as much as the pure power players (e.g. spray and pray
shimwreckers) that dominate on a THS. When the shot is tougher my
strike % doesn't drop as much as the power players and my spare
conversion rate is high. So I have an advantage in a lower scoring
environment.

At least at the high amateur level. When I tried to compete with the
good regional and touring players the difference was they can shoot
spares too and their strike % is still very high even on hard
conditions. So I don't bowl for a living and they do :)

Mark




  
Date: 19 Jul 2007 19:46:27
From: John Sowell
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals

Come on not that many people bowl for a living!
How many do you figure in the U.S.? Less than a handful, maybe. I mean
REALLY living off bowling competition.

http://community.webtv.net/GALO/NORTHSANDIEGOCOUNTY



   
Date: 20 Jul 2007 03:19:49
From: Robert A. Zanol
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
Why do you think it is like that? Out of all the sports there are, bowling
has purses that are peanuts. The whole prize fund at a PBA tournament is
probably less than what the 20th spot pays on the PGA Tour. It is a shame
but it seems that the average bowler has tarnished the sports reputation so
badly that even the PBA which puts out a tough shot is looked upon as having
no integrity in the eyes of people who have money to invest. I am sure there
are some other reasons for this, but I am equaually as confident the
integrity issue is a major factor in why "money" is not invested into
professional bowling by corporate sponsors the way it is invested into other
sports.

RAZ
"John Sowell" <GALO@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:1925-46A02203-353@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net...
>
> Come on not that many people bowl for a living!
> How many do you figure in the U.S.? Less than a handful, maybe. I mean
> REALLY living off bowling competition.
>
> http://community.webtv.net/GALO/NORTHSANDIEGOCOUNTY
>




    
Date: 19 Jul 2007 22:06:23
From: Gotitdone
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
Bowlers , proprietors to blame; lets not forget the ball manufactures. Ball
specks are a farce in our game (sport). They need a big change in this area
to bring integrity. Then there are pins, kickbacks,oil,pindecks,etc. on and
on.
AL




     
Date: 20 Jul 2007 01:10:23
From: John Sowell
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals

The PBA Geico All Star Competition which takes place in outdoor settings
is a pefect example why bowling is not a very attractive entity for
MAJOR sponsors.

Is it exciting?
is it thrilling?
do you get the sense that the bowlers are really into it based on their
lane demeanor(they seem to care more about what they say then how they
bowl).
We are basically just seeing the players up close and personal and the
competition really does not seem to be taken very seriously by any of
the participants.

Watching telecasts of the old shows on ESPN does more for me than
watching the PBA Geico All Stars in competition.

The Skills Shows are another attempt in trying to make bowling
interesting to the masses. Even the proffessionals seem to be suffering
from meltdown as the sport is slowly evaporating into meaningless
competition. Everyone seems so nice on the lanes and what is missing is
rivalries between bowlers. Thats right, good old fashioned rivalries
which keep the public tuned in.

Stop being so nice to each other on the lanes and turn up the heat on
each other. We need some REAL superstars with REAL emotions that can
turn it up another notch.

just my 2 cents worth!



http://community.webtv.net/GALO/NORTHSANDIEGOCOUNTY



 
Date: 16 Jul 2007 14:29:44
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
> Here's my contribution to the discussion of the difference between the
> normal league shot and the Sport shot: "On a league shot, the penalty for a
> bad shot is often a strike; on a Sport shot (or Nationals shot), the
> penalty for a bad shot is often an open frame."

This would be funnier if it wasnt so #&*#$%! true... ;)



 
Date: 16 Jul 2007 07:39:30
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 16, 2:00 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com > wrote:
> Trust me, you won't notice any difference between
> next years shot and what we have had in the recent past.

Tony is right about this. The only difference the average house hack
(most of us reading here) is going to see is on the oil graph and that
doesn't matter much.

I'm not sure the shot has gotten tougher, just a little different.
When Kegel came in and started doing the lanes things tightened up
slightly but you had more ways to the pocket. Carry is not free so you
have to repeat shots but you know have different angles to the hole.
Prior to that if you could not throw a fallback shot from 5th or 6th
arrow you were not going to have much fun.

> I went from 3 or 4 leagues a week to 1... and it shows.

Hmm, I've only bowled one league for the last three years and based on
performance at nationals I think I've gotten better. I may go to zero
per year and see if I can improve further.

Mark




  
Date: 17 Jul 2007 23:10:13
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
Well, for me at least, I don't have the accuracy I once had. Whether or
not you believe in "muscle memory" or not, I feel the lack of continuous
bowling has cause me to have to pay attention to my approach and arm
swing more than I had to in the past. I certainly don't have the average
or the games and series that I used to have... and it isn't because
bowling has gotten tougher. Just my $.02.

Mark wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2:00 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>> Trust me, you won't notice any difference between
>> next years shot and what we have had in the recent past.
>
> Tony is right about this. The only difference the average house hack
> (most of us reading here) is going to see is on the oil graph and that
> doesn't matter much.
>
> I'm not sure the shot has gotten tougher, just a little different.
> When Kegel came in and started doing the lanes things tightened up
> slightly but you had more ways to the pocket. Carry is not free so you
> have to repeat shots but you know have different angles to the hole.
> Prior to that if you could not throw a fallback shot from 5th or 6th
> arrow you were not going to have much fun.
>
>> I went from 3 or 4 leagues a week to 1... and it shows.
>
> Hmm, I've only bowled one league for the last three years and based on
> performance at nationals I think I've gotten better. I may go to zero
> per year and see if I can improve further.
>
> Mark
>
>


   
Date: 18 Jul 2007 16:59:24
From: Darby
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
I know my game is not what it was 10 years ago. Part of that would happen
anyway, but I had to have my right knee replaced this summer and hope to
manage on the left one until next summer. Over a 5-6 year period my knees
went and my knee bend went too. That meant my slide was not as good. I had
used the deep knee bend and slide to get me and the ball to the line in the
right timing. So now I'm not solid at the line either. All of that plays
heck with my accuracy. I've dropped 35 pins in average.
I've tried bowling since surgery. I found that my right leg push off
into the slide is good again. It has a big influence on timing too. My
armswing is better, I'm more solid at the line and the ball rolls better.
But there's a lot wrong yet, it's the same old left knee. :(
Dar
"Tony R Smith" <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com > wrote

> Well, for me at least, I don't have the accuracy I once had. Whether or
> not you believe in "muscle memory" or not, I feel the lack of continuous
> bowling has cause me to have to pay attention to my approach and arm swing
> more than I had to in the past. I certainly don't have the average or the
> games and series that I used to have... and it isn't because bowling has
> gotten tougher. Just my $.02.
>
> Mark wrote:
>> On Jul 16, 2:00 am, Tony R Smith <tonyrsm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>>> Trust me, you won't notice any difference between
>>> next years shot and what we have had in the recent past.
>>
>> Tony is right about this. The only difference the average house hack
>> (most of us reading here) is going to see is on the oil graph and that
>> doesn't matter much.
>>
>> I'm not sure the shot has gotten tougher, just a little different.
>> When Kegel came in and started doing the lanes things tightened up
>> slightly but you had more ways to the pocket. Carry is not free so you
>> have to repeat shots but you know have different angles to the hole.
>> Prior to that if you could not throw a fallback shot from 5th or 6th
>> arrow you were not going to have much fun.
>>
>>> I went from 3 or 4 leagues a week to 1... and it shows.
>>
>> Hmm, I've only bowled one league for the last three years and based on
>> performance at nationals I think I've gotten better. I may go to zero
>> per year and see if I can improve further.
>>
>> Mark
>>



  
Date: 16 Jul 2007 20:03:01
From: Scott Thomas
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals

According to the information posted at the Stadium, we've been bowling on
what amounts to a Sport shot for the past three or four years. I'm not sure
why they're waiting until next year to "certify" it.

Here's my contribution to the discussion of the difference between the
normal league shot and the Sport shot: "On a league shot, the penalty for a
bad shot is often a strike; on a Sport shot (or Nationals shot), the
penalty for a bad shot is often an open frame."

Scott Thomas


   
Date: 17 Jul 2007 17:48:27
From: Jake's Marketplace, Inc.
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
Experience says..
the penalty for a bad shot in Sport or PBA Experience patterns is often a
multi-pin spare leave or split.

The open frame as a result comes from the same level of poor execution on
said spare attempt!

Michael


"Scott Thomas" <rcc@skt300isabowlingscore.com > wrote in message
news:Xns996FA347D98DErccskt300com@130.81.64.196...
>
> According to the information posted at the Stadium, we've been bowling on
> what amounts to a Sport shot for the past three or four years. I'm not
> sure
> why they're waiting until next year to "certify" it.
>
> Here's my contribution to the discussion of the difference between the
> normal league shot and the Sport shot: "On a league shot, the penalty for
> a
> bad shot is often a strike; on a Sport shot (or Nationals shot), the
> penalty for a bad shot is often an open frame."
>
> Scott Thomas




 
Date: 15 Jul 2007 23:00:21
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
It's been 4 or 5 years since Nationals toughened up it's shot (not that
it was easy before). Trust me, you won't notice any difference between
next years shot and what we have had in the recent past. If you think
that Nationals makes you look foolish you should probably re-evaluate
your game. Everyone that bowls Nationals bowls on the same condition. It
is not an impossible shot... it is a fair shot. It forces you to
actually be accurate and to covert spares. Compared to a normal house
shot that might seem impossible, but it isn't. If bowling is to become a
"sport" again, this is exactly the direction it needs to go... not only
for Nationals but for leagues as well. These days, Nationals is about
the only bowling I truly enjoy... not only for the challenge, but to
watch truly skilled bowlers dominate that shot. I only wish that I
bowled as much these days as I had in the past. I went from 3 or 4
leagues a week to 1... and it shows.

Chris TenBraak wrote:
> I'm suprised that I have not heard/seen much uproar over the decision that
> next years Nationals will be bowled on a Sport Condition. I'm glad I didn't
> spend the bucks to go look foolish. It seems to me that Nationals was
> always tough enough anyway.
>


 
Date: 16 Jul 2007 03:29:30
From: Robert A. Zanol
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
You can count on one thing: whatever they put out it won't be the 10:1 oil
ratio that makes us all think we are oh so good when we really aren't.

RAZ


"Chris TenBraak" <ctenbraak@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:%Ytmi.1467$Dx2.280@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm suprised that I have not heard/seen much uproar over the decision that
> next years Nationals will be bowled on a Sport Condition. I'm glad I
> didn't spend the bucks to go look foolish. It seems to me that Nationals
> was always tough enough anyway.
>
> --
> Chris
>




 
Date: 15 Jul 2007 19:56:05
From: Lisa with a Blackberry White Dot
Subject: Re: Sport bowling at Nationals
On Jul 15, 2:47 pm, "Chris TenBraak" <ctenbr...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> I'm suprised that I have not heard/seen much uproar over the decision that
> next years Nationals will be bowled on a Sport Condition. I'm glad I didn't
> spend the bucks to go look foolish. It seems to me that Nationals was
> always tough enough anyway.

Hasn't the shot at Nationals the last few years been a modified
version of something sport compliant?

Lisa