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Main
Date: 01 Jan 2005 11:10:59
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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> Went to my first house with a radar gun. My ball speed is under 15mph. I
> have a 215 avg but have a big problem with my ball hooking too much. Is
> under 15 too slow.
Yes, under 15 is too slow ESPECIALLY IF you have a ball with any kind of
"surface", especially if it's drilled to give any kind of flare reaction
(see the earlier "Pro Shop Plugged" thread).
Now then, assuming you have good technique and such, the easiest way to
"tame" you ball is to POLISH IT UP, as in make the surface smoother. This
should make the ball skid further and break later. Of course, you'll no
doubt have to Make Some Adjustments in your starting location, hand
position, etc. to adapt to the "new surface".
That's my few bytes. Looking forward to what "the experts" have to add...
:)
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Date: 21 Jan 2005 23:47:44
From: Rob & Kirsty Buckley
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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G wrote:
>
> Wrong. If you have a good loose pendulum armswing you will NOT have to
> adjust your timing. If you will recall back to Physics 101 you will
> recall that the period of a pendulum motion is not dependent upon it's
> amplitude.
>
Not this old chestnut again...
Anyone who actually paud attention in Physics 101 would remember that
this relies on a simplifying approximation to the actual motion of a
pendulum, and is only even approximately valid for small displacements
from equilibrium. So, G, it is you who are wrong.
Rob.
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Date: 22 Jan 2005 05:16:59
From: NimBill
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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>From: Rob & Kirsty Buckley the_buckleys@optusnet.com.au
>Not this old chestnut again...
>Anyone who actually paud attention in Physics 101 would remember that
>this relies on a simplifying approximation to the actual motion of a
>pendulum, and is only even approximately valid for small displacements
>from equilibrium. So, G, it is you who are wrong.
>
>Rob.
What is wrong Rob? The basic pendulum swing allows you to apply muscle power to
increase or decrease speed and ball rotataion.
The idea is to keep the armswing in a single move in terms of direction but is
not intended to regulate the effect you may put on the ball after it leaves you
hand. If you need to correct the direction you make the adjustment before the
ball is in motion.
The Pendulum Motion applies in bowling because the weight of the ball is enough
to prohibit a sidearm pitch at the pins. It is best to let the pushout on
approach and backswing to be in a single line until you get really consistant
at hitting the same target on the lanes with it.
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Date: 21 Jan 2005 06:46:48
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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Methinx y'all've'en been overfeeding a TROLL lately.....
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Date: 19 Jan 2005 08:35:22
From: gwg300
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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Ok. Show me.
Do, please, take into account gravitational acceleration, moment of
inertia, and angular acceleration...and note that the perpendicular
distance from the axis of rotation is actually THE SAME (or rather
might be negligibly different...). So...this all taken into account...
exactly how much longer will the ball take? I'm interested...because
I'd like to know how one would adjust their timing by the amounts of
time we are speaking of here.
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Date: 19 Jan 2005 19:57:18
From: twobirds
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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gwg300 wrote:
> Ok. Show me.
>
> Do, please, take into account gravitational acceleration, moment of
> inertia, and angular acceleration...and note that the perpendicular
> distance from the axis of rotation is actually THE SAME (or rather
> might be negligibly different...). So...this all taken into
> account... exactly how much longer will the ball take? I'm
> interested...because I'd like to know how one would adjust their
> timing by the amounts of time we are speaking of here.
If you start the ball higher, it takes longer to drop. Its inertia will
carry the other half of the elipses higher than if it had been started
lower. And yes, I said "elipse". Your arm creates an eliptical orbit
because the pin (your shoulder, the muscles in it, etc) doesn't allow
perfect 360 degree rotation.... So, if you want absolute accuracy from the
formula, we are going to have to do some measuring that will require
physical access to your arm. - That isn't exactly a possibility through
this medium called usenet, so we are going to have to just "make do" with
information we have.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Pendulum.html That should keep you
busy for a while . Hint: We are dealing with an oscillating pendulum here
and not a rotating one (unless something is very wrong with your swing <g >)
Pay particular attention to your potential energies and their sources.
Now, consider the inertia of your forward motion, your height, the length of
your stride, the number of steps in your approach, ... Depending on your
approach, and depending on how much gravitational inertia you add (how much
higher you start the ball), you could actually be a half step or maybe even
more off when you reach the height at which you want to release the ball.
We probably are not talking about milliseconds here.
If you start the ball higher and everything else remains constant, it just
depends on how much higher you start the ball... and it depends on how true
you pendulum. If you tell me that you use no muscles to guide your swing,
then sure: We are talking about milliseconds if your pendulum never reaches
half way to separatrix. Look back to the third formula on the page I linked
you to. You'll see that the closer to separatrix you get with your
pundulum, the more time it takes for gravity to take back over and start
your pendulum back towards the source of gravity. There is an animation on
the page that shows that concept quite well. So, the further from
separatrix, the shorter the time... but remember we are starting the ball
higher, so we should actually be coming closer to separatrix on the
backswing. We are not talking about milliseconds in any but the most
controlled circumstances... and those circumstances are probably not
duplicatable with the human shoulder.
Try it yourself. Next time you practice, try to keep everything else about
what you do constant, but start the ball 10 inches higher. If you really do
have a nice pendulum for a swing, you'll probably be anywhere between 4
inches to a full half-step off when your ball is back to the correct height
at which you would normally release the ball.
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Date: 20 Jan 2005 18:37:25
From: Bowen691jack
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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If you figure all the following out you will be lucky if you don't roll the
ball backwards in the pit
bject: Re: Too Slow
>From: "twobirds" notareal@eaddy.com
>Date: 1/19/2005 8:57 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <q_2dnW8_7JbtgHLcRVn-hQ@bresnan.com>
>
>gwg300 wrote:
>> Ok. Show me.
>>
>> Do, please, take into account gravitational acceleration, moment of
>> inertia, and angular acceleration...and note that the perpendicular
>> distance from the axis of rotation is actually THE SAME (or rather
>> might be negligibly different...). So...this all taken into
>> account... exactly how much longer will the ball take? I'm
>> interested...because I'd like to know how one would adjust their
>> timing by the amounts of time we are speaking of here.
>
>If you start the ball higher, it takes longer to drop. Its inertia will
>carry the other half of the elipses higher than if it had been started
>lower. And yes, I said "elipse". Your arm creates an eliptical orbit
>because the pin (your shoulder, the muscles in it, etc) doesn't allow
>perfect 360 degree rotation.... So, if you want absolute accuracy from the
>formula, we are going to have to do some measuring that will require
>physical access to your arm. - That isn't exactly a possibility through
>this medium called usenet, so we are going to have to just "make do" with
>information we have.
>
>http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Pendulum.html That should keep you
>busy for a while . Hint: We are dealing with an oscillating pendulum here
>and not a rotating one (unless something is very wrong with your swing <g>)
>Pay particular attention to your potential energies and their sources.
>
>Now, consider the inertia of your forward motion, your height, the length of
>your stride, the number of steps in your approach, ... Depending on your
>approach, and depending on how much gravitational inertia you add (how much
>higher you start the ball), you could actually be a half step or maybe even
>more off when you reach the height at which you want to release the ball.
>We probably are not talking about milliseconds here.
>
>If you start the ball higher and everything else remains constant, it just
>depends on how much higher you start the ball... and it depends on how true
>you pendulum. If you tell me that you use no muscles to guide your swing,
>then sure: We are talking about milliseconds if your pendulum never reaches
>half way to separatrix. Look back to the third formula on the page I linked
>you to. You'll see that the closer to separatrix you get with your
>pundulum, the more time it takes for gravity to take back over and start
>your pendulum back towards the source of gravity. There is an animation on
>the page that shows that concept quite well. So, the further from
>separatrix, the shorter the time... but remember we are starting the ball
>higher, so we should actually be coming closer to separatrix on the
>backswing. We are not talking about milliseconds in any but the most
>controlled circumstances... and those circumstances are probably not
>duplicatable with the human shoulder.
>
>Try it yourself. Next time you practice, try to keep everything else about
>what you do constant, but start the ball 10 inches higher. If you really do
>have a nice pendulum for a swing, you'll probably be anywhere between 4
>inches to a full half-step off when your ball is back to the correct height
>at which you would normally release the ball.
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Date: 04 Jan 2005 12:41:15
From: G
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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Wrong. If you have a good loose pendulum armswing you will NOT have to
adjust your timing. If you will recall back to Physics 101 you will
recall that the period of a pendulum motion is not dependent upon it's
amplitude.
Smokey wrote:
> > I was told for years "you throw the ball too fast". I added a
pause in my
> > approach, that now I am unable to take out. This has slowed my
ball down
> > too much.
> >
> > My avg has steadily improved over the last 5 years. Starting at
about 150
> > to where I am now at 215. I have been able to get away with the
slower
> > speed. I would like to increase my speed up little bit, but unsure
of how
> > to do that.
> >
> > My ball rolls right out of my hand no slide at all. I feel too
much of
> the
> > ball energy is used up with enough energy not left at the end.
>
> This is my few bytes.
>
> The easiest way to increase ball SPEED is to start the ball HIGHER in
your
> stance. IOW, if you currently hold the ball even with your waist,
move it
> so it's even with your CHEST. This requires the ball to fall
farther, thus
> it'll gain more potential speed.
>
> The DOWNSIDE of this is you'll have to ADJUST YOUR TIMING. Because
the ball
> is taking longer to travel (by starting it higher), your footwork has
to
> "adjust accordingly" so you release the ball at the right point.
Remember,
> DO NOT "put your back/arm/shoulder/etc." to try and artifically
increase the
> ball's speed, or you'll really screw-up your timing!
>
> Once you get everything "back in sunc", you should, I think, see a
1-2 MPH
> speed increase, which should translate into What You Want in "taming
the
> hook". Just remember to NEVER LOSE your current "slow ball" delivery
as
> it'll come in handy for VERY OILY (read "wet") lane conditions. :)
>
> Hope this helps and, again, I hope "the experts" chime in with their
bytes
> of wisdom....
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Date: 04 Jan 2005 17:34:32
From: twobirds
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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G wrote:
> Wrong. If you have a good loose pendulum armswing you will NOT have
> to adjust your timing. If you will recall back to Physics 101 you
> will recall that the period of a pendulum motion is not dependent
> upon it's amplitude.
>
An object in motion tends to stay in motion. If you are moving forward
while delivering the forward scope of the pendulum, it will of course also
have that kinetic energy from your forward motion as well as the kinetic
energy from its own swing. There are two velocities to consider and a
formula can be created for each and therefore for both.
Just for the pendulum, you have to understand gravitational acceleration,
moment of inertia, and angular acceleration. Moment of inertia, and
specifically perpendicular distance from the axis of rotation and angular
momentum are determined by the distance from the axis and the distance the
pendulum is in motion. So, if you start the ball higher, it will take
longer to reach the backswing and is also likely to carry the backswing
higher and therefore take longer to come back to the point at which the
bowler releases the ball. So, yes. Changing the height at which the ball
is started will require an adjustment of "timing" to acheive a proper
release.
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Date: 04 Jan 2005 23:22:34
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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> > Wrong. If you have a good loose pendulum armswing you will NOT have
> > to adjust your timing. If you will recall back to Physics 101 you
> > will recall that the period of a pendulum motion is not dependent
> > upon it's amplitude.
> >
>
> An object in motion tends to stay in motion. If you are moving forward
> while delivering the forward scope of the pendulum, it will of course also
> have that kinetic energy from your forward motion as well as the kinetic
> energy from its own swing. There are two velocities to consider and a
> formula can be created for each and therefore for both.
>
> Just for the pendulum, you have to understand gravitational acceleration,
> moment of inertia, and angular acceleration. Moment of inertia, and
> specifically perpendicular distance from the axis of rotation and angular
> momentum are determined by the distance from the axis and the distance the
> pendulum is in motion. So, if you start the ball higher, it will take
> longer to reach the backswing and is also likely to carry the backswing
> higher and therefore take longer to come back to the point at which the
> bowler releases the ball. So, yes. Changing the height at which the ball
> is started will require an adjustment of "timing" to acheive a proper
> release.
Thank you for explaining it MUCH BETTER than I could have. :)
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Date: 05 Jan 2005 11:08:29
From: twobirds
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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Smokey wrote:
<snip >
>
> Thank you for explaining it MUCH BETTER than I could have. :)
I happen to teach four physics classes ;) Apparently, G was never one of my
students.
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Date: 01 Jan 2005 14:16:24
From: Rick
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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I was told for years "you throw the ball too fast". I added a pause in my
approach, that now I am unable to take out. This has slowed my ball down
too much.
My avg has steadily improved over the last 5 years. Starting at about 150
to where I am now at 215. I have been able to get away with the slower
speed. I would like to increase my speed up little bit, but unsure of how
to do that.
My ball rolls right out of my hand no slide at all. I feel too much of the
ball energy is used up with enough energy not left at the end.
Thanks
Rick
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Date: 01 Jan 2005 11:32:04
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Too Slow
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> I was told for years "you throw the ball too fast". I added a pause in my
> approach, that now I am unable to take out. This has slowed my ball down
> too much.
>
> My avg has steadily improved over the last 5 years. Starting at about 150
> to where I am now at 215. I have been able to get away with the slower
> speed. I would like to increase my speed up little bit, but unsure of how
> to do that.
>
> My ball rolls right out of my hand no slide at all. I feel too much of
the
> ball energy is used up with enough energy not left at the end.
This is my few bytes.
The easiest way to increase ball SPEED is to start the ball HIGHER in your
stance. IOW, if you currently hold the ball even with your waist, move it
so it's even with your CHEST. This requires the ball to fall farther, thus
it'll gain more potential speed.
The DOWNSIDE of this is you'll have to ADJUST YOUR TIMING. Because the ball
is taking longer to travel (by starting it higher), your footwork has to
"adjust accordingly" so you release the ball at the right point. Remember,
DO NOT "put your back/arm/shoulder/etc." to try and artifically increase the
ball's speed, or you'll really screw-up your timing!
Once you get everything "back in sunc", you should, I think, see a 1-2 MPH
speed increase, which should translate into What You Want in "taming the
hook". Just remember to NEVER LOSE your current "slow ball" delivery as
it'll come in handy for VERY OILY (read "wet") lane conditions. :)
Hope this helps and, again, I hope "the experts" chime in with their bytes
of wisdom....
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