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Date: 28 Mar 2007 14:27:50
From: Brian Pedersen
Subject: Leaving 10 pins
As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of 10-pins
on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack maybe), and
what is the right correction to make when finding myself in that situation?

Thanks in advance

---
Brian






 
Date: 08 Apr 2007 19:13:20
From: TurbotechCoach
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
On Mar 28, 8:27 am, "Brian Pedersen" <nottell...@nottelling.no > wrote:
> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of 10-pins
> on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack maybe), and
> what is the right correction to make when finding myself in that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian

Brian,
Tenpins are a product of the game. It is never the ball that
leaves one as so many people may think.
The ten pin leave is a by product of the ball entering the pocket
with not enough angle into the pocket or also not rolling off the same
spot or Breakpoint distance down lane and the ball traveling deeper
and behind the pocket.
One thing that you can check to see if you are in the correct place
is to see where the ball exits the pins as it leaves the pin deck in
the back. A pure strike ball will exit in the same location as to
where it entered. If the ball enters the 1-3 pocket it should exit
between the 5-9 in the pin deck. If it is right of this spot towards
the 9-pin or further right you may leave a 10- pin or 2- pin or
both.
If the ball leaves the deck between the 5-8 location, you may leave
the 9 pin or 4 pin and or nasty splits 4-9 or worse. Keep visual as
to where your ball exits the pindeck, as this is the secret to most
pros for when to move on a lane.

Good Luck

Turbo Coach
USBC Gold



 
Date: 29 Mar 2007 22:23:03
From: Scott Thomas
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
"Brian Pedersen" <nottelling@nottelling.no > wrote in
news:eudn05$sv7$1@newsbin.cybercity.dk:

> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself
> in that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
>
>

Leaving corner pins on pocket hits is Nature's way of telling you your
release wasn't quite as good as you thought. I know, I must have left a
million over the years.

On a related note, I recently broke down and bought a plastic ball to shoot
10-pins. Should have done it years ago - I didn't miss one for three weeks,
including 9 games in Reno at the USBC Open.

Scott


  
Date: 29 Mar 2007 23:20:41
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Plastic has its uses. A valuable lesson there for those still refusing one.
Its the 'poor opens' that kill your score.
As there is almost a half a lane width in the margin of error for single
pin spares (unless you insist on bowling too narrow a line at the
corners) there isn't that much reason to miss any single pin spare when
you have a suitable plastic ball in the bag.
Scott Thomas wrote:
>
> Leaving corner pins on pocket hits is Nature's way of telling you your
> release wasn't quite as good as you thought. I know, I must have left a
> million over the years.
>
> On a related note, I recently broke down and bought a plastic ball to shoot
> 10-pins. Should have done it years ago - I didn't miss one for three weeks,
> including 9 games in Reno at the USBC Open.
>
> Scott


 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 23:16:30
From: Darby
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Others may offer different answers, but I leave 10 pins when my ball goes
slightly too long before breaking to the pocket. So it comes in a tad behind
the head pin. The answer is to make the ball hook a little sooner. My method
is to move my spot on the lane a few inches closer to me. Sometimes I can
move one board right with my feet if the lanes are slick.
I know of people who move up or back on the approach. They also hold the
ball higher or lower to change ball speed. Some use a slower ball speed
because it will hook sooner, but I don't mess with that. You've got to be
pretty good before you start messing with speed changes. It changes so many
things you can get really messed up.
Dar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Pedersen" <nottelling@nottelling.no >



> As a right-handed bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself in
> that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
>

"Brian Pedersen" <nottelling@nottelling.no > wrote in message
news:eudn05$sv7$1@newsbin.cybercity.dk...
> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself in
> that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
>




 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 10:02:49
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front of
the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You can
also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown. The
way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the ball
does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you will not
"normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight back or
through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too much
deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a few
other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to identify the
cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style, your equipment,
and the lane conditions, your break point should be in the 45-55 foot
range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the
breakpoint (too much speed for the conditions). You can solve this by a
variety of methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the approach is the
old school method... personally, I prefer to adjust my ball speed to
match the conditions and then adjust my approach and target to match my
new trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic ringing 10 pin. grab
the slider and slowly advance through the video so that you can see the
3 pin clip the side of the 6 pin and push it around the 10 pin. At full
speed it looks like a classic solid pocket shot.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm



Brian Pedersen wrote:
> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of 10-pins
> on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack maybe), and
> what is the right correction to make when finding myself in that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
>
>


  
Date: 28 Mar 2007 10:55:29
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
I should have added the strike video for comparison. Notice that the
breakpoint is much earlier and that the ball drives through the 5 pin in
this case which pushes the 3 pin directly into the 6 pin and into the 10
pin.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/vStrike.Htm

Tony R Smith wrote:
> The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
> solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
> late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
> impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
> causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front of
> the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You can
> also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown. The
> way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the ball
> does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you will not
> "normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight back or
> through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too much
> deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a few
> other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to identify the
> cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style, your equipment,
> and the lane conditions, your break point should be in the 45-55 foot
> range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the
> breakpoint (too much speed for the conditions). You can solve this by a
> variety of methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the approach is the
> old school method... personally, I prefer to adjust my ball speed to
> match the conditions and then adjust my approach and target to match my
> new trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic ringing 10 pin. grab
> the slider and slowly advance through the video so that you can see the
> 3 pin clip the side of the 6 pin and push it around the 10 pin. At full
> speed it looks like a classic solid pocket shot.
>
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm
>
>
>
> Brian Pedersen wrote:
>> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
>> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
>> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself
>> in that situation?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> ---
>> Brian
>>


   
Date: 03 Apr 2007 11:35:10
From: Kirwan Tenpin
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Have a closer look at those two videos.The reason for the increase in
deflection is that the tenpin ball hits the head pin a board and a half
lighter in the pocket. The simple fact that the head pin gets back onto the
lane shows it is bouncing off the front of the two pin. The tenpin is left,
but not because the ball deflected out of the pocket, but because the bowler
did not hit the pocket solid in the first place.

Cheers, Robbie.


"Tony R Smith" <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com > wrote in message
news:460aac11$0$1365$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>I should have added the strike video for comparison. Notice that the
>breakpoint is much earlier and that the ball drives through the 5 pin in
>this case which pushes the 3 pin directly into the 6 pin and into the 10
>pin.
>
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/vStrike.Htm
>
> Tony R Smith wrote:
>> The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
>> solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
>> late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
>> impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
>> causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front of
>> the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You can
>> also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown. The
>> way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the ball
>> does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you will not
>> "normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight back or
>> through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too much
>> deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a few
>> other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to identify the
>> cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style, your equipment,
>> and the lane conditions, your break point should be in the 45-55 foot
>> range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the breakpoint
>> (too much speed for the conditions). You can solve this by a variety of
>> methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the approach is the old school
>> method... personally, I prefer to adjust my ball speed to match the
>> conditions and then adjust my approach and target to match my new
>> trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic ringing 10 pin. grab the
>> slider and slowly advance through the video so that you can see the 3 pin
>> clip the side of the 6 pin and push it around the 10 pin. At full speed
>> it looks like a classic solid pocket shot.
>>
>> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian Pedersen wrote:
>>> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
>>> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
>>> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself in
>>> that situation?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Brian
>>>




    
Date: 03 Apr 2007 11:10:36
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
You need to look at them again. Yes, the strike shot is slightly higher
in the pocket but the first 10 pin leave is a text book pocket shot. If
it doesn't deflect it is a strike all day, any day. Although the video
for the 10 pin is a closer view of the pins, the break point occurs in
the frame picture. I assure you that unless you have stripped clean
backends the ball will deflect when the break point happens as closely
to the pins as it does in that video.

Kirwan Tenpin wrote:
> Have a closer look at those two videos.The reason for the increase in
> deflection is that the tenpin ball hits the head pin a board and a half
> lighter in the pocket. The simple fact that the head pin gets back onto the
> lane shows it is bouncing off the front of the two pin. The tenpin is left,
> but not because the ball deflected out of the pocket, but because the bowler
> did not hit the pocket solid in the first place.
>
> Cheers, Robbie.
>
>
> "Tony R Smith" <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:460aac11$0$1365$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> I should have added the strike video for comparison. Notice that the
>> breakpoint is much earlier and that the ball drives through the 5 pin in
>> this case which pushes the 3 pin directly into the 6 pin and into the 10
>> pin.
>>
>> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/vStrike.Htm
>>
>> Tony R Smith wrote:
>>> The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
>>> solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
>>> late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
>>> impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
>>> causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front of
>>> the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You can
>>> also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown. The
>>> way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the ball
>>> does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you will not
>>> "normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight back or
>>> through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too much
>>> deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a few
>>> other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to identify the
>>> cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style, your equipment,
>>> and the lane conditions, your break point should be in the 45-55 foot
>>> range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the breakpoint
>>> (too much speed for the conditions). You can solve this by a variety of
>>> methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the approach is the old school
>>> method... personally, I prefer to adjust my ball speed to match the
>>> conditions and then adjust my approach and target to match my new
>>> trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic ringing 10 pin. grab the
>>> slider and slowly advance through the video so that you can see the 3 pin
>>> clip the side of the 6 pin and push it around the 10 pin. At full speed
>>> it looks like a classic solid pocket shot.
>>>
>>> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian Pedersen wrote:
>>>> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
>>>> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
>>>> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself in
>>>> that situation?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>
>


     
Date: 04 Apr 2007 11:03:06
From: Kirwan Tenpin
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
A text book pocket shot sends the head pin straight down the 2-4-7 rail, not
off the front of the two pin and back onto the deck. That is a classic half
pocket hit. The only reason that shot carries at all is the ridiculous entry
angles generated by todays superballs.

"Tony R Smith" <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com > wrote in message
news:4612989d$0$5766$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> You need to look at them again. Yes, the strike shot is slightly higher in
> the pocket but the first 10 pin leave is a text book pocket shot. If it
> doesn't deflect it is a strike all day, any day. Although the video for
> the 10 pin is a closer view of the pins, the break point occurs in the
> frame picture. I assure you that unless you have stripped clean backends
> the ball will deflect when the break point happens as closely to the pins
> as it does in that video.
>
> Kirwan Tenpin wrote:
>> Have a closer look at those two videos.The reason for the increase in
>> deflection is that the tenpin ball hits the head pin a board and a half
>> lighter in the pocket. The simple fact that the head pin gets back onto
>> the lane shows it is bouncing off the front of the two pin. The tenpin is
>> left, but not because the ball deflected out of the pocket, but because
>> the bowler did not hit the pocket solid in the first place.
>>
>> Cheers, Robbie.
>>
>>
>> "Tony R Smith" <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
>> news:460aac11$0$1365$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> I should have added the strike video for comparison. Notice that the
>>> breakpoint is much earlier and that the ball drives through the 5 pin in
>>> this case which pushes the 3 pin directly into the 6 pin and into the 10
>>> pin.
>>>
>>> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/vStrike.Htm
>>>
>>> Tony R Smith wrote:
>>>> The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
>>>> solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
>>>> late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
>>>> impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
>>>> causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front
>>>> of the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You
>>>> can also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown.
>>>> The way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the
>>>> ball does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you
>>>> will not "normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight
>>>> back or through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too
>>>> much deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a
>>>> few other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to
>>>> identify the cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style,
>>>> your equipment, and the lane conditions, your break point should be in
>>>> the 45-55 foot range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball
>>>> through the breakpoint (too much speed for the conditions). You can
>>>> solve this by a variety of methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the
>>>> approach is the old school method... personally, I prefer to adjust my
>>>> ball speed to match the conditions and then adjust my approach and
>>>> target to match my new trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic
>>>> ringing 10 pin. grab the slider and slowly advance through the video so
>>>> that you can see the 3 pin clip the side of the 6 pin and push it
>>>> around the 10 pin. At full speed it looks like a classic solid pocket
>>>> shot.
>>>>
>>>> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian Pedersen wrote:
>>>>> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
>>>>> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
>>>>> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself
>>>>> in that situation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>



     
Date: 04 Apr 2007 09:07:34
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Tony R Smith wrote:
> You need to look at them again. Yes, the strike shot is slightly higher
> in the pocket but the first 10 pin leave is a text book pocket shot. If
> it doesn't deflect it is a strike all day, any day. Although the video
> for the 10 pin is a closer view of the pins, the break point occurs in
> the frame picture. I assure you that unless you have stripped clean
> backends the ball will deflect when the break point happens as closely
> to the pins as it does in that video.
>
Could be my eyes - looks to me as though the 10 pin leave shows the ball
not gripping the lane as it hits the pins - hence hits like a lettuce...
? ?
The balls certainly go in with differences on their axes.

Which is the same thing as saying I agree.


  
Date: 28 Mar 2007 19:41:07
From: Brian Pedersen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Thanks a lot for the reply (also to you newsreader and litefrozen)


>Too much deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a
>few other nasty surprises.

Tell me about it ... I managed to leave the 5-7-10 last time out :)

> Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the breakpoint (too
> much speed for the conditions).

I have a suspicion that this might be the case, and will try to be a better
observer next time.

Again, thanks for the tip.

---
Brian




  
Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:08:02
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Good advice - can't better it. As OP says he comes out over the 8 a
highly likely scenario.
Tony R Smith wrote:
> The most common cause for leaving the 10 pin on what appears to be a
> solid pocket shot is deflection. If your ball hits its breakpoint too
> late (still more skid than roll at impact) or too early (roll out at
> impact) the ball will deflect rather than drive through the pins. This
> causes the 3 pin to impact the side of the 6 pin and push it in front of
> the 10 pin and around it, commonly know as a "ringing 10 pin". You can
> also get deflection on heavily oiled lanes with a lot of carrydown. The
> way to identify what is happening is to carefully watch what the ball
> does after impact. If the ball drives through to the 8 pin you will not
> "normally" leave the 10 pin. If it hits and drives straight back or
> through the 8 pin you have a recipe for the ringing 10. Too much
> deflection and it might even be an 8-10, 5-10, sour apple, and a few
> other nasty surprises. The way to correct the problem is to identify the
> cause. Watch your break point. Depending on your style, your equipment,
> and the lane conditions, your break point should be in the 45-55 foot
> range. Most commonly the cause is pushing the ball through the
> breakpoint (too much speed for the conditions). You can solve this by a
> variety of methods... 1 step up/back/left/right on the approach is the
> old school method... personally, I prefer to adjust my ball speed to
> match the conditions and then adjust my approach and target to match my
> new trajectory. Here is a video showing a classic ringing 10 pin. grab
> the slider and slowly advance through the video so that you can see the
> 3 pin clip the side of the 6 pin and push it around the 10 pin. At full
> speed it looks like a classic solid pocket shot.
>
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/V10Pin.Htm
>
>
>
> Brian Pedersen wrote:
>> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of
>> 10-pins on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack
>> maybe), and what is the right correction to make when finding myself
>> in that situation?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> ---
>> Brian
>>


 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 15:08:04
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
In article <eudn05$sv7$1@newsbin.cybercity.dk >, Brian Pedersen <nottelling@nottelling.no> wrote:

> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of 10-pins
> on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack maybe), and
> what is the right correction to make when finding myself in that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
The corner leave's 99.9% of the time are caused by a light hit.

The ball comes in a little behind the head pin too much.
It then drives the 3 pin straight back, which clips the the 6 pin
kicking it out around the 10. instead of driving it directly into the 10 pin.

Two simple things to correct it are-
1- Move back on the approach a 1 or 2 inchs. ( I do this method)
1a-If leaving say a 4 pin (a heavy hit leave), you would move forward.
or
2-Move left with your feet a little and soften your shot some.


 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 13:21:39
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Brian Pedersen wrote:
> As a righthanded bowler, from time to time I tend to leave a lot of 10-pins
> on solid pocket hits. What causes this (other than a bad rack maybe), and
> what is the right correction to make when finding myself in that situation?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> ---
> Brian
>
>
Weak tens or strong tens ?

You a cranker / massive hooker or more traditional ?

the 10 pin is at the end of the carry line ( 1 to 7 the accuracy line)
for a right hander. Sound like your solid pocket hits are not coming in
a the right angle to carry. Maybe hits not as solid as you
think/observe. What hook span you bowling and how far in front of the
pins in the breakpoint ? Where does the ball come out at the back of the
deck (over the 8 ? , over the nine ?) ?


of course easier to tell if we could see you bowl...


  
Date: 29 Mar 2007 13:33:29
From: Spammy Sammy
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins

"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message
news:DZtOh.14432$5c2.6297@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
> > Weak tens or strong tens ?

What's the difference? I've heard these phrases before but never understood
what they meant.
Thx.




   
Date: 29 Mar 2007 09:53:31
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Spammy Sammy wrote:
> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> news:DZtOh.14432$5c2.6297@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>>> Weak tens or strong tens ?
>
> What's the difference? I've heard these phrases before but never understood
> what they meant.
> Thx.
>
>
I weak ten - the 6 pin flops in the gutter in front of the ten.
A strong ten - the six pin whizzes around the ten off the kick back and
ends up in the pit at the back. Some also call this 'ringing'.


  
Date: 28 Mar 2007 16:06:43
From: Brian Pedersen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins


> Weak tens or strong tens ?

I would call it strong

> You a cranker / massive hooker or more traditional ?

I deliver the ball over the 15th board at the foul line, and play around the
2nd arrow.

>What hook span you bowling and how far in front of the pins in the
>breakpoint ?

I really haven't "measured it", but the path is pretty much similar to this:
If you choose right-handed crancker, and hover the mouse over "THUNDERSTRUCK
PEARL" it looks a lot like my shot:

http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/ball.asp?ballid=230


Where does the ball come out at the back of the
> deck (over the 8 ? , over the nine ?) ?

I would say around the 8.

I know it is not much to go by, but I hope it clarified some issues.

---
Brian





   
Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:20:04
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Hook span - you don't measure it you calculate it. In this case..

You deliver over 15 at the line and roll over second arrow (board 10).
that is a five board 'cross' in a quarter of the length of the lane. IF
THE BALL CARRIED ON STRAIGHT with no deviation it would move 5 more
boards at 30 feet and ten more for the second half of the lane. (or just
plain 4 x 5). That is twenty boards.
As you deliver over 15 that would put you in the pin deck on board minus
5 (-5).
As you enter the pocket on 17 (classically, will ASS-U-ME the same for
your shot) then the difference between where the ball would finish if it
went lazer straight (-5) and where it actually hits (17) is your hook span.
In this case that is 22 boards.

Academic in a way without seeing you bowl but maybe useful to know.
Now you can assess hook span on all your balls it may help with ball
selection.

As posted elsewhere it may be a carry down thing. A hands on instructor
is best I reckon.

Consider a lesser ball - it may be more controllable and it may well
read the lane better.

Brian Pedersen wrote:
>> Weak tens or strong tens ?
>
> I would call it strong
>
>> You a cranker / massive hooker or more traditional ?
>
> I deliver the ball over the 15th board at the foul line, and play around the
> 2nd arrow.
>
>> What hook span you bowling and how far in front of the pins in the
>> breakpoint ?
>
> I really haven't "measured it", but the path is pretty much similar to this:
> If you choose right-handed crancker, and hover the mouse over "THUNDERSTRUCK
> PEARL" it looks a lot like my shot:
>
> http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/ball.asp?ballid=230
>
>
> Where does the ball come out at the back of the
>> deck (over the 8 ? , over the nine ?) ?
>
> I would say around the 8.
>
> I know it is not much to go by, but I hope it clarified some issues.
>
> ---
> Brian
>
>
>


    
Date: 28 Mar 2007 21:06:33
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
In article <8txOh.8626$F82.3118@newsfe4-win.ntli.net >, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> Hook span - you don't measure it you calculate it. In this case..
>
> You deliver over 15 at the line and roll over second arrow (board 10).
> that is a five board 'cross' in a quarter of the length of the lane. IF
> THE BALL CARRIED ON STRAIGHT with no deviation it would move 5 more
> boards at 30 feet and ten more for the second half of the lane. (or just
> plain 4 x 5). That is twenty boards.
> As you deliver over 15 that would put you in the pin deck on board minus
> 5 (-5).
> As you enter the pocket on 17 (classically, will ASS-U-ME the same for
> your shot) then the difference between where the ball would finish if it
> went lazer straight (-5) and where it actually hits (17) is your hook span.
> In this case that is 22 boards.
>
> Academic in a way without seeing you bowl but maybe useful to know.
> Now you can assess hook span on all your balls it may help with ball
> selection.
> As posted elsewhere it may be a carry down thing. A hands on instructor
> is best I reckon.
> Consider a lesser ball - it may be more controllable and it may well
> read the lane better.

I thought this was a interesting little different way to figure total hook (or boards covered).
Its modified from the original way to measure total hook.
(Which is # of boards from sitdown point to breakpoint plus # of boards from breakpoint back to pocket at 17.)

But it has a flaw.

In this example Total hook was 22 boards.
that meant the ball went from 15 to 5 at 30'= 10boards
then back to the pocket from 5 to 17= 12 boards
so 10+12=22 boards total.

But what if the ball continued alittle farther to the 3rd board.
So from 15 out to 3 would= 13 boards
then from 3 back to the pocket at 17 would= 15 boards
So 13+15= 28 boards total

Both balls went straight from 15 to 2nd arrow(10) and hit the -5 board.
But it didnt take into account where the ball made the turn back to 17.


     
Date: 28 Mar 2007 22:36:51
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Not sure I follow. The laser straight line does cross the third board.
The amount of hook is the amount of left turn (for a righty). I can't
see any other way than to compare it to a straight line to work out how
far left it hooked (moved from straight). It is a geometry thing isn't it ?
In your example the crossing of the third board must be happening
further down the lane than when the laser straight line crosses the 5
board. If it hits board 3 at thirty feet (plus some) then the hook span
is calculated thus. if it crosses board 3 on the same line as in my
original example
15 board at line, board at pins = 15 -(2x12)
which is 15 - 24 which is board -9 at the pins.
Assuming pocket hit on board seventeen the span is 26 boards.

My example does not preclude the ball turning on board 3 or 2 or even 1
- any further right and it ain't coming back though :) but they have to
hit further down the lane than thirty feet or it is a different angle we
are measuring and so a different span.

As for when and where it does it on the lane - that is whole nother story.


litefrozen wrote:
> In article <8txOh.8626$F82.3118@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> Hook span - you don't measure it you calculate it. In this case..
>>
>> You deliver over 15 at the line and roll over second arrow (board 10).
>> that is a five board 'cross' in a quarter of the length of the lane. IF
>> THE BALL CARRIED ON STRAIGHT with no deviation it would move 5 more
>> boards at 30 feet and ten more for the second half of the lane. (or just
>> plain 4 x 5). That is twenty boards.
>> As you deliver over 15 that would put you in the pin deck on board minus
>> 5 (-5).
>> As you enter the pocket on 17 (classically, will ASS-U-ME the same for
>> your shot) then the difference between where the ball would finish if it
>> went lazer straight (-5) and where it actually hits (17) is your hook span.
>> In this case that is 22 boards.
>>
>> Academic in a way without seeing you bowl but maybe useful to know.
>> Now you can assess hook span on all your balls it may help with ball
>> selection.
>> As posted elsewhere it may be a carry down thing. A hands on instructor
>> is best I reckon.
>> Consider a lesser ball - it may be more controllable and it may well
>> read the lane better.
>
> I thought this was a interesting little different way to figure total hook (or boards covered).
> Its modified from the original way to measure total hook.
> (Which is # of boards from sitdown point to breakpoint plus # of boards from breakpoint back to pocket at 17.)
>
> But it has a flaw.
>
> In this example Total hook was 22 boards.
> that meant the ball went from 15 to 5 at 30'= 10boards
> then back to the pocket from 5 to 17= 12 boards
> so 10+12=22 boards total.
>
> But what if the ball continued alittle farther to the 3rd board.
> So from 15 out to 3 would= 13 boards
> then from 3 back to the pocket at 17 would= 15 boards
> So 13+15= 28 boards total
>
> Both balls went straight from 15 to 2nd arrow(10) and hit the -5 board.
> But it didnt take into account where the ball made the turn back to 17.


      
Date: 28 Mar 2007 23:30:51
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
In article <76COh.9822$Kk5.6987@newsfe1-win.ntli.net >, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:

First I have to correct this part, it should reaad like this.

"But what if the ball continued alittle farther to the 3rd board.
So from 15 out to 3 would= 12 boards
then from 3 back to the pocket at 17 would= 14 boards
So 12+14= 26 boards total"


Ok heres a chart I made to help-
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w89/aloarjr810/bowlingxtras/hook.jpg


Your straight line goes from 15 to the -5 board (black line on chart)
you got the 22 boards of hook by counting from -5 to the 17 board. (see <hook span 22 boards > on chart)

Now the traditional way is to measure total boards covered.
Number of boards crossed from sitdown point to break point+number of boards crossed from breakpoint to pocket (17th).

Now looking at the chart Your straight line stays the same. goes from 15 to the -5 board (black line on chart)

Break point #1 is at the 5 board which is 30' down the lane which is 10 boards crossed. (15 to 5)
Now from that breakpoint to the pocket it crosses 12 boards. (5 to 17)
Which is 10+12= "22" total boards crossed.

Now breakpoint #2 is on the same line but the ball continued out to 3rd board which is
about 8' farther and 2 more boards out down the lane. But still on your same line.
Now this gives you 12 boards crossed to the breakpoint. (15 to 3)
Now from the breakpoint to the pocket it crosses 14 boards ( 3 to 17)
Which is 12+14 = "26" total boards crossed.

In each case your 22 boards hook span is the same. But the 2nd ball hooked harder and covered more boards than the 1st.


       
Date: 29 Mar 2007 10:19:44
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Nice diagram. Thanks for that. You are to be commended.

Span still 22 boards. Breakpoint control and angle to the pocket
different for sure. But that is a whole 'nother ball game.
The same hook span can produce lots of different lines to the pocket
depending on line, ball reaction etc. If you play with the numbers a bit
you can come up with lots of different options that still get you to the
pocket with the same hook span but with different lines and breakpoints.
They won't all give you the same angle to the pocket - and hence the
carry will be different.
Especially when you consider that you will mostly be playing on a non
flat condition !
That is why I asked the OP about his breakpoint.
For clarity (and I should have mentioned it earlier...) I use breakpoint
to mean the point at which the revs on the ball increase rather than
where it turns the corner, they are not necessarily the same point on
the lane.
I really think is where it moves into advanced lane reading and lane play.
If people want to experiment with this just mark up your PAP with some
white them tapes during a practice session and observe what the ball
really is doing - especially observe the axis movement.

I must admit to agreeing with Tom Kouros (and why not !!), there are
four factors which influence carry. They are:-
1) The mass of the ball
2) The speed of the ball
3) The angle to the pocket
4) the nature of the ball roll
Of these four by far the the most important is
4) the nature of the ball roll

A simple example shows this to be true. Helicopter bowlers.
An observational re-enforcement is that it is easily seen that bowlers
have their own characteristic 'pin reactions'. Some can get the pins to
mix much better than others can.
This is down to the bowler, it is possible to tune the release to
produce much better mixing. This gives a much better margin for error on
angle to the pocket, with really good mixing (using the kick backs) it
gives a nice margin on the pocket itself. In these days of hook in a box
balls not many develop mid-roll but for those that do its action at the
pins is devastating. Again I would defer to Mr Kouros - I know my place !!!

Of course the manufacturers want everyone to believe the first three are
the most important - but that is another whole new ball game ! :)

litefrozen wrote:
> In article <76COh.9822$Kk5.6987@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> First I have to correct this part, it should reaad like this.
>
> "But what if the ball continued alittle farther to the 3rd board.
> So from 15 out to 3 would= 12 boards
> then from 3 back to the pocket at 17 would= 14 boards
> So 12+14= 26 boards total"
>
>
> Ok heres a chart I made to help-
> http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w89/aloarjr810/bowlingxtras/hook.jpg
>
>
> Your straight line goes from 15 to the -5 board (black line on chart)
> you got the 22 boards of hook by counting from -5 to the 17 board. (see <hook span 22 boards> on chart)
>
> Now the traditional way is to measure total boards covered.
> Number of boards crossed from sitdown point to break point+number of boards crossed from breakpoint to pocket (17th).
>
> Now looking at the chart Your straight line stays the same. goes from 15 to the -5 board (black line on chart)
>
> Break point #1 is at the 5 board which is 30' down the lane which is 10 boards crossed. (15 to 5)
> Now from that breakpoint to the pocket it crosses 12 boards. (5 to 17)
> Which is 10+12= "22" total boards crossed.
>
> Now breakpoint #2 is on the same line but the ball continued out to 3rd board which is
> about 8' farther and 2 more boards out down the lane. But still on your same line.
> Now this gives you 12 boards crossed to the breakpoint. (15 to 3)
> Now from the breakpoint to the pocket it crosses 14 boards ( 3 to 17)
> Which is 12+14 = "26" total boards crossed.
>
> In each case your 22 boards hook span is the same. But the 2nd ball hooked harder and covered more boards than the 1st.


        
Date: 29 Mar 2007 14:17:52
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins
In article <4pMOh.17968$NK3.2878@newsfe6-win.ntli.net >, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> Nice diagram. Thanks for that. You are to be commended.
>
Thanks

Basically what I was trying to point out was that with the way "hook Span" was figured.
You could have 3 balls, say a Particle,Resin and plastic. All show the same "Hook Span" rating
example Particle 22,Resin 22 and plastic 22. That wouldn't really help.

But if you used just boards covered the three balls would have different ratings
example Particle 34 ,Resin 22 and plastic 5. which would be more helpful.

But all this getting away from the org. ques. about ten pins.

LiteF

"On A Classic Strike"
The ball only hits four pins the 1-3-5-9
The 1 hits the 2 which hits 4 which hits 7
The 3 hits 6 which hits 10
and the 5 hits the 8

Strike!


         
Date: 29 Mar 2007 14:27:58
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Leaving 10 pins

> But all this getting away from the org. ques. about ten pins.

Heres some good info on the tenpin, nice diagram on why its left-

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/michellemullen/mm200009.pdf

picking it up-
http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/michellemullen/mm200105.pdf

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/ritger/dr200011.pdf

Shoot this site has alot of good info-

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips.html