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Date: 08 Jul 2007 22:21:39
From: litefrozen
Subject: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?

What's D.T.T.A.? "Distance To The Arrows"

You hear the question "What arrow are you shooting?". you'll hear
answer's like "2nd", "3rd" and "4th" arrow. But then they ask "How far
are the arrows down the lane?" the answer is always "15 Feet"!

But have you ever thought about the fact the arrows are not in a
straight line across the lane? 4th arrow is farther down the lane than
1st & 7th arrow.

So when you move your target lets say from 2nd arrow to 3rd. You've not
only moved left 5 boards (For right handers), but also moved your target
farther down the lane.

Also where the 15 foot mark crosses the arrows can vary with lane brand.
One might have 15 cross at the 4th arrow, while another might be at 1st
arrow.

The USBC spec's say-
"At a point 12-16 feet beyond the foul line, there may be embedded in or
stamped on the lane a maximum of seven targets."

So theres some wiggle room for just where the arrows are in regards to
how far from the foul line they are.

Just a thought.

What about that time you bowled on a different brand of lanes, you shot
your regular mark but something was just a little off. Hmmm.




 
Date: 12 Jul 2007 23:58:34
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
> Mine is showing 4.766" diameter "pins"

Or roughly 4-1/2 boards wide, which puts the OUTER EDGE of the widest
part of the 7 and 10 pins roughly 1/2 board from the channel's
edge... :)



 
Date: 12 Jul 2007 23:54:59
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
Lite, please allow me these bytes.

With each lane being 41.5" (41-1/2") wide (nominally) comprised of 39
boards, that makes each board 1.06" wide (nominally), or roughly
1-1/13".

With the 7 and 10 pins being 2.75" (2-3/4") from the channel edge (per
USBC spex), that would put their centers (roughly) on the 36-1/2 and
2-1/2 boards.

With the 12" pin center spacing equating to (roughly) 11 boards, that
would place the pins ** approximately ** thusly:

Pin(s) Board
1 and 5 20 (same location as the 4th rangefinder
arrow/foul
line dot)
2 and 8 25-1/2 (5-1/2 boards offfset to the left of
the head
pin - just "outside" of the 5th
rangefinder arrow/foul line dot)
3 and 9 14-1/2 (5-1/2 boards offset to the right of
the head
pin - just "inside" of the 5th
rangefinder arrow/foul line dot)
4 31 (11 boards left-offset of head pin
- "outside" of the
6th rangefinder arrow/foul line dot, but
still well within the
ball's "left" radius)
6 9 (11 boards right-offset of head
pin - "inside" of the
2nd rangefinder arrow/foul line dot, but
still well within the
ball's "right" radius)

The 7 and 10 pin centers are "offset" a little more from the 7th (35th
board) and 1st (5th board) arrows/foul line dots (roughly twice), but
they're still WELL WITHIN the range of the ball hitting them if the
ball is thrown dead straight down the respective arrow/board and it
doesn't make any kind of lateral movement (i.e., hook) before it hits
the pin.

Again, these are ** APPROXIMATE LOCATIONS **, looking at the nearest
board!

In conclusion, for ** BEGINNER TRAINING PURPOSES **, one can tell the
student to use the arrows AND the foul line dots to line-up with the
"respective" pin and there'll be a very good chance the student,
rolling a FLAT, DEAD-STRAIGHT BALL down that board, will hit the
desired pin(s) as detailed above. Remember, a bowling ball is roughly
8.6" in diameter, or a shade over 8 boards wide, which means it has a
"4 board reach" on each side of its' delivered centerline. FWIW, this
is the information I give my students in helping them understand the
relationship between the pins and arrows and they've never been
confused in their targeting nor "inaccurate" in hitting the pin I tell
them to hit. :)

That's all I have to add and I hope it's useful. :)



  
Date: 13 Jul 2007 09:14:57
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
PromptJock wrote:
> Lite, please allow me these bytes.
>snip
> FWIW, this
> is the information I give my students in helping them understand the
> relationship between the pins and arrows and they've never been
> confused in their targeting nor "inaccurate" in hitting the pin I tell
> them to hit. :)
>
> That's all I have to add and I hope it's useful. :)
>
I find it useful to use a pin and two bowling balls as a demo - just
behind the foul line.
Put a pin on your chosen dot and put a ball each side of it touching
each outer edge of the pin. then get the student to count the number of
boards crossed by this arrangement (BallPinBall).
It demonstrates quite clearly that you have about half a lane's width
(do the math on the diameters..) to get any single pin spare.
IMV a lot of folks tense up when faced with single pin shots as they
think the target is 'small' when it is anything but that.
It also shows quite clearly why you should shoot corner pins DIAGONALLY.
You can show this by doing the demo at the edge of the lane.




  
Date: 13 Jul 2007 07:23:13
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
In article <1184309699.115392.4150@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com >, PromptJock <102151.3223@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Lite, please allow me these bytes.
>
> With each lane being 41.5" (41-1/2") wide (nominally) comprised of 39
> boards, that makes each board 1.06" wide (nominally), or roughly
> 1-1/13".

Thanks Prompt . In fact just before I read your post. I just got done updating and fixing my diagram.
Do to a heated discussion over at BR.com about the what the dots lined up with.

So I was trying to made the diagram clearer and add the dots and discovered I had used 1" not 1.064" size boards.
which made my lane 2.5" too narrow. Thus throwing off the pin placements.

I think I have it fixed now .I used a full scale drawing so I think its pretty close.


  
Date: 13 Jul 2007 07:13:20
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?

The Updated diagram
Heres a new diagram

http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg

Right off I admit a mistake in the first diagram I had made which throwed off the placement of the pins.

It was not do to counting the wrong boards. It was because of the size
of the boards used. Most of the time boards are said to be 1" wide, They
are not.

The lane and pin deck is according to the USBC Spec's 41 1/2" wide +/-
1/2".
There are 39 boards on the lane. So if you work it out that makes each
board 1.064" wide not 1".

I used the 1" which made my lane about 2.5" too narrow.

I'm sorry.

Thanks to the BIG discussion I had at BR.com I believe I have it corrected now.

Now the statement that all the arrows and dots don't line up directly
with the centers of the pins is still true.

Just whats changed are the boards the pins centers sit most directly on
and what the arrows and dots line up with.

From a right handers view point.

Starting with the pins-

10 is on board #3
6 is on board #9
3 & 9 are on boards #14/15
1 & 5 are on board #20
2 & 8 are on boards #25/26
4 is on board #31
7 is on board #37


The Arrows-

Arrow #7 hits the most right of center on pin 7.
Arrow #6 hits more right of center on pin 4.
Arrow #5 hits right of center on pins 2/8.
Arrow #4 is the only one to line up on the pin centers on pins 1/5.
Arrow #3 hits left of center on pins 3/9.
Arrow #2 hits more left of center on pin 6.
Arrow #1 hits the most left of center on pin 10.

The Lane Dots-
In regard to the Dots. The hits are based on the max 4.766" diameter of
a pin.
If it was based the size of the pinspots which is 2.25" diameter some of
the dots would miss them. Those are marked with a (*).

Dot #1 Hits the center of pin 10.
Dot #2 Hits left of center on pin 10.
Dot #3 Hits right of center on pin 6.
Dot #4 Hits most left of center on pin 6.*
Dot #5 Hits right of center of pin 3/9

Dot #6 Hits left of center on pin 2/8.
Dot #7 Hits most right of center on pin 4.*
Dot #8 Hits left of center on pin 4.
Dot #9 Hits most right of center on pin 7.
Dot #10 Hits the center of pin 7.


   
Date: 13 Jul 2007 09:15:44
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
litefrozen wrote:
> The Updated diagram
> Heres a new diagram
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg
>Snip

Superb piece of work. Well done and thanks.



 
Date: 11 Jul 2007 13:05:48
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
> Well I pulled out the Spec's for the lanes . to see if I could come up with a better diagram of the
> pin deck showing where the relationship of the arrows and the pins.
> So heres what I came up with-
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg
>
> This should be pretty close.

MOST EXCELLENT PIECE OF WORK! my sincere compliments to you and your
dedication to accuracy. :)



 
Date: 09 Jul 2007 01:16:25
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
Do you go into every house you bowl and throw the same shot? The fact
that the arrows might be in slight different locations from house to
house is irrelevant. You should go to any house, through an inside, an
outside and a track shot in practice... determine your best line of
attack... and then fine tune your line. Once accomplished, the arrows
(or boards for that matter) become your reference for repeating shots. I
almost always target "at" the arrows, but rarely target an arrow itself.
Most of the time I will target a board between the arrows (i.e. 8 board,
or 12 board, or 17 board, etc.). Most instructors will tell you that you
should target closer to the foul line when the conditions are very oily,
and further down the lane when the lanes are dry. Since you should be
"predetermining" your line, where they are is irrelevant. They are only
refernce points. Same can be said for the breakpoint markers that come
on modern Brunswick lanes... they are only reference points that help
you gauge whether you are successfully repeating shots or not... if you
are paying attention at least.

Oh, to answer your question... No, I don't think about D.T.T.A. ;-)

litefrozen wrote:
> What's D.T.T.A.? "Distance To The Arrows"
>
> You hear the question "What arrow are you shooting?". you'll hear
> answer's like "2nd", "3rd" and "4th" arrow. But then they ask "How far
> are the arrows down the lane?" the answer is always "15 Feet"!
>
> But have you ever thought about the fact the arrows are not in a
> straight line across the lane? 4th arrow is farther down the lane than
> 1st & 7th arrow.
>
> So when you move your target lets say from 2nd arrow to 3rd. You've not
> only moved left 5 boards (For right handers), but also moved your target
> farther down the lane.
>
> Also where the 15 foot mark crosses the arrows can vary with lane brand.
> One might have 15 cross at the 4th arrow, while another might be at 1st
> arrow.
>
> The USBC spec's say-
> "At a point 12-16 feet beyond the foul line, there may be embedded in or
> stamped on the lane a maximum of seven targets."
>
> So theres some wiggle room for just where the arrows are in regards to
> how far from the foul line they are.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> What about that time you bowled on a different brand of lanes, you shot
> your regular mark but something was just a little off. Hmmm.


  
Date: 09 Jul 2007 15:26:21
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
In article <4691eeda$0$14969$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >, Tony R Smith <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> Do you go into every house you bowl and throw the same shot? The fact
> that the arrows might be in slight different locations from house to
> house is irrelevant. You should go to any house, through an inside, an
> outside and a track shot in practice... determine your best line of
> attack... and then fine tune your line. Once accomplished, the arrows
> (or boards for that matter) become your reference for repeating shots. I
> almost always target "at" the arrows, but rarely target an arrow itself.
> Most of the time I will target a board between the arrows (i.e. 8 board,
> or 12 board, or 17 board, etc.). Most instructors will tell you that you
> should target closer to the foul line when the conditions are very oily,
> and further down the lane when the lanes are dry. Since you should be
> "predetermining" your line, where they are is irrelevant. They are only
> refernce points. Same can be said for the breakpoint markers that come
> on modern Brunswick lanes... they are only reference points that help
> you gauge whether you are successfully repeating shots or not... if you
> are paying attention at least.
>
> Oh, to answer your question... No, I don't think about D.T.T.A. ;-)
>

--------
> Do you go into every house you bowl and throw the same shot?

No I don't.
But a large number of bowlers when they go to a new place will at first.
They'll line up in thier comfort zone, shooting thier regular marks till they get adjusted to the
lanes conditions.

Your right its irrelevant, its just a trivial thought about the layout of the Rangefinder on the lane.

One thing you should look at is the dots on the approach. Are there 5 dots or 7?
There are still alot of lanes that have the 5 dot approachs not 7 dot ones.

That still trips up alot of bowlers . Like when the bowler who always stands on the last dot left to
shoot a 10, at home they have 7 dots and the last dot is on 35. Now the house they are at only
has 5 dots on the approach and they didnt notice it when they go to shot a 10.The last dots heres is on 30
now They find thier target line is off shooting that spare.


-----------some more info---

Just some more info on the dots and arrows.
Most all lanes use whats called the Rangefinder system by Brunswick

It was invented by Lowell Jackson back in the 1930's

"Jackson's poor eyesight was responsible for his most lasting legacy.
Because he could not see the pins well, he would often put a pencil dot
on the approach to help line up. Eventually, a nitpicking official at a
tournament cited the ABC rulebook and made him erase his mark.

That got Jackson to thinking. Out on the lanes, bowlers had long used
darker boards to help them aim their deliveries. Why not have a series
of markers permanently inlaid on the approaches and lanes? Jackson took
his idea to his bosses at Brunswick. The result was the now familiar
rangefinder system, which the ABC approved in 1939, and which is still
in use today. "
For more info on Jackson
http://bowlersjournal.com/currentissue/archive/drjake-may.htm


The bowling lane and approach contain DOTS (dowels) and ARROWS which are
visual aids to proper alignment for strikes and spares. These aids are
positioned on numbered boards.

ON THE APPROACH
There are three sets of seven dots on the approach. The first set
located approximately 15 feet from the foul line; the second set is 12
feet away; and the third set is approximately 3 inches away. In some
centers, the outermost dots are missing at the 12- and 15-foot levels.
The center dot in each set is larger than the rest. You use the first
two sets to help you choose where to stand on the approach for strikes
and spares -- your SETUP LOCATION. The third set will help you or an
observer determine exactly where your ball touches down on the lane --
the TOUCHDOWN POINT.

. In order for all bowlers to communicate correctly, right-handed
bowlers need to count from right to left, while left-handed bowlers need
to count from left to right. For purposes of explaining strike targeting
below, we will limit the number of playable boards at 20. Therefore, the
sequence is 5, 10, 15, 20, 15, 10, and 5. We will change our
illustration when we talk about spare shooting.


How to use the RANGEFINDER targeting system
ON THE LANE
There is a set of SEVEN ARROWS located approximately 15 feet from the
foul line and a set of TEN DOTS located approximately six feet from the
foul line. These are parts of the RANGEFINDER targeting system
inated by Brunswick during the second world war. Note that the
approach dots and the lane arrows are in line with the pins, while the
lane dots are not.

HOW TO TARGET FOR A STRIKE WHILE IN YOUR SETUP
You may use either the arrows or the dots as your VISUAL TARGET -- the
point where you fix your gaze. The following method uses BOTH -- the way
the Rangefinder system was originally intended to be used.

1. First, choose your intended target line starting from the
approach dots at the foul line and ending with the arrows at 15 feet;
your target line is approximately 15 feet long. Let's pick a 12-to-8
target line; your ball touches down on board 12 and crosses board 8 at
the arrows. walk toward your target.

2. Next, extend this path in your mind's eye all the way back to
your setup position on the approach. It crosses board 16 at the level of
your setup. walk toward your target.

3. Position your bowling shoulder and your ball directly over this
extended target line. in this case, both would be over board 16, with
your forearm in line with your target. walk toward your target.

4. Square your shoulders so that they are 90 degrees to your
forearm. walk toward your target.

5. Square your feet perpendicular to your shoulders and parallel
with your target line to ensure that you will walk parallel with your
swing. walk toward your target.

6. Since the lane dots at six feet are closer and easier to see,
drop your gaze back to these and use them as your visual target during
your delivery. Since these dots are closer to each other, you can more
effectively "fine tune" where you place your ball along your target
line. walk toward your target.

7. When you start to move, make sure to push your ball toward your
target and walk toward your target.


   
Date: 10 Jul 2007 16:03:13
From: Tony R Smith
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
As far as the dots on the approach goes... not only are there 5 dot and
7 dot lanes, but I have bowled on some older lanes where the separation
from center dot to the first dots right or left of center is 5 boards
but the separation from those dots to the next dots right or left is 7
boards. The house that had those lanes was in Bremerton, WA and no
longer exists. There are a lot of unique oddities out there. Most of the
modern generation of lanes that I have seen have all been 5 dots
though... which is too bad, because I really prefer 7 dot approaches.

litefrozen wrote:
> In article <4691eeda$0$14969$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Tony R Smith <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you go into every house you bowl and throw the same shot? The fact
>> that the arrows might be in slight different locations from house to
>> house is irrelevant. You should go to any house, through an inside, an
>> outside and a track shot in practice... determine your best line of
>> attack... and then fine tune your line. Once accomplished, the arrows
>> (or boards for that matter) become your reference for repeating shots. I
>> almost always target "at" the arrows, but rarely target an arrow itself.
>> Most of the time I will target a board between the arrows (i.e. 8 board,
>> or 12 board, or 17 board, etc.). Most instructors will tell you that you
>> should target closer to the foul line when the conditions are very oily,
>> and further down the lane when the lanes are dry. Since you should be
>> "predetermining" your line, where they are is irrelevant. They are only
>> refernce points. Same can be said for the breakpoint markers that come
>> on modern Brunswick lanes... they are only reference points that help
>> you gauge whether you are successfully repeating shots or not... if you
>> are paying attention at least.
>>
>> Oh, to answer your question... No, I don't think about D.T.T.A. ;-)
>>
>
> --------
>> Do you go into every house you bowl and throw the same shot?
>
> No I don't.
> But a large number of bowlers when they go to a new place will at first.
> They'll line up in thier comfort zone, shooting thier regular marks till they get adjusted to the
> lanes conditions.
>
> Your right its irrelevant, its just a trivial thought about the layout of the Rangefinder on the lane.
>
> One thing you should look at is the dots on the approach. Are there 5 dots or 7?
> There are still alot of lanes that have the 5 dot approachs not 7 dot ones.
>
> That still trips up alot of bowlers . Like when the bowler who always stands on the last dot left to
> shoot a 10, at home they have 7 dots and the last dot is on 35. Now the house they are at only
> has 5 dots on the approach and they didnt notice it when they go to shot a 10.The last dots heres is on 30
> now They find thier target line is off shooting that spare.
>
>
> -----------some more info---
>
> Just some more info on the dots and arrows.
> Most all lanes use whats called the Rangefinder system by Brunswick
>
> It was invented by Lowell Jackson back in the 1930's
>
> "Jackson's poor eyesight was responsible for his most lasting legacy.
> Because he could not see the pins well, he would often put a pencil dot
> on the approach to help line up. Eventually, a nitpicking official at a
> tournament cited the ABC rulebook and made him erase his mark.
>
> That got Jackson to thinking. Out on the lanes, bowlers had long used
> darker boards to help them aim their deliveries. Why not have a series
> of markers permanently inlaid on the approaches and lanes? Jackson took
> his idea to his bosses at Brunswick. The result was the now familiar
> rangefinder system, which the ABC approved in 1939, and which is still
> in use today. "
> For more info on Jackson
> http://bowlersjournal.com/currentissue/archive/drjake-may.htm
>
>
> The bowling lane and approach contain DOTS (dowels) and ARROWS which are
> visual aids to proper alignment for strikes and spares. These aids are
> positioned on numbered boards.
>
> ON THE APPROACH
> There are three sets of seven dots on the approach. The first set
> located approximately 15 feet from the foul line; the second set is 12
> feet away; and the third set is approximately 3 inches away. In some
> centers, the outermost dots are missing at the 12- and 15-foot levels.
> The center dot in each set is larger than the rest. You use the first
> two sets to help you choose where to stand on the approach for strikes
> and spares -- your SETUP LOCATION. The third set will help you or an
> observer determine exactly where your ball touches down on the lane --
> the TOUCHDOWN POINT.
>
> . In order for all bowlers to communicate correctly, right-handed
> bowlers need to count from right to left, while left-handed bowlers need
> to count from left to right. For purposes of explaining strike targeting
> below, we will limit the number of playable boards at 20. Therefore, the
> sequence is 5, 10, 15, 20, 15, 10, and 5. We will change our
> illustration when we talk about spare shooting.
>
>
> How to use the RANGEFINDER targeting system
> ON THE LANE
> There is a set of SEVEN ARROWS located approximately 15 feet from the
> foul line and a set of TEN DOTS located approximately six feet from the
> foul line. These are parts of the RANGEFINDER targeting system
> inated by Brunswick during the second world war. Note that the
> approach dots and the lane arrows are in line with the pins, while the
> lane dots are not.
>
> HOW TO TARGET FOR A STRIKE WHILE IN YOUR SETUP
> You may use either the arrows or the dots as your VISUAL TARGET -- the
> point where you fix your gaze. The following method uses BOTH -- the way
> the Rangefinder system was originally intended to be used.
>
> 1. First, choose your intended target line starting from the
> approach dots at the foul line and ending with the arrows at 15 feet;
> your target line is approximately 15 feet long. Let's pick a 12-to-8
> target line; your ball touches down on board 12 and crosses board 8 at
> the arrows. walk toward your target.
>
> 2. Next, extend this path in your mind's eye all the way back to
> your setup position on the approach. It crosses board 16 at the level of
> your setup. walk toward your target.
>
> 3. Position your bowling shoulder and your ball directly over this
> extended target line. in this case, both would be over board 16, with
> your forearm in line with your target. walk toward your target.
>
> 4. Square your shoulders so that they are 90 degrees to your
> forearm. walk toward your target.
>
> 5. Square your feet perpendicular to your shoulders and parallel
> with your target line to ensure that you will walk parallel with your
> swing. walk toward your target.
>
> 6. Since the lane dots at six feet are closer and easier to see,
> drop your gaze back to these and use them as your visual target during
> your delivery. Since these dots are closer to each other, you can more
> effectively "fine tune" where you place your ball along your target
> line. walk toward your target.
>
> 7. When you start to move, make sure to push your ball toward your
> target and walk toward your target.


    
Date: 11 Jul 2007 09:21:31
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
Tony R Smith wrote:
> As far as the dots on the approach goes... not only are there 5 dot and
> 7 dot lanes, but I have bowled on some older lanes where the separation
> from center dot to the first dots right or left of center is 5 boards
> but the separation from those dots to the next dots right or left is 7
> boards. The house that had those lanes was in Bremerton, WA and no
> longer exists. There are a lot of unique oddities out there. Most of the
> modern generation of lanes that I have seen have all been 5 dots
> though... which is too bad, because I really prefer 7 dot approaches.
>
Sounds like someone screwed up with that 7 dot separation.
I remember being told once that the 5 dot 7 dot difference was a
Brunswick v AMF thing...

Every house does have its differences though - to may eyes 9at could
just be my eyes or an optical illusion to do with house lighting and
perspective due to ceiling heights etc) it seems that the 12 foot and 15
foot dots have some variance...


     
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:51:05
From: Robert A. Zanol
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
Hey this was an interesting thread. I never really paid much attention to
the dots because I use boards only as a reference for targeting on the lane
and my stance on the approach. Once i get loose and know I am releasing the
ball properly in practice I begin my adjustments but I always use the boards
as my reference points. The reason I stopped using the dots long ago was as
you all mentioned the variances from house to house. So I decided to use the
boards as my reference point because that doesn't vary from center to
center.

Nevertheless this thread has peaked my curiosity and next time out I will
take notice of what you all shared here and see if anything can help me out
or not.

RAZ
----------------------------------------------------------------
"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message
news:vi1li.27398$3j1.16832@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> Tony R Smith wrote:
>> As far as the dots on the approach goes... not only are there 5 dot and 7
>> dot lanes, but I have bowled on some older lanes where the separation
>> from center dot to the first dots right or left of center is 5 boards but
>> the separation from those dots to the next dots right or left is 7
>> boards. The house that had those lanes was in Bremerton, WA and no longer
>> exists. There are a lot of unique oddities out there. Most of the modern
>> generation of lanes that I have seen have all been 5 dots though... which
>> is too bad, because I really prefer 7 dot approaches.
>>
> Sounds like someone screwed up with that 7 dot separation.
> I remember being told once that the 5 dot 7 dot difference was a Brunswick
> v AMF thing...
>
> Every house does have its differences though - to may eyes 9at could just
> be my eyes or an optical illusion to do with house lighting and
> perspective due to ceiling heights etc) it seems that the 12 foot and 15
> foot dots have some variance...




      
Date: 11 Jul 2007 19:17:11
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?

Well I pulled out the Spec's for the lanes . to see if I could come up with a better diagram of the
pin deck showing where the relationship of the arrows and the pins.
So heres what I came up with-

http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg

This should be pretty close.


       
Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:25:20
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
litefrozen wrote:
> Well I pulled out the Spec's for the lanes . to see if I could come up with a better diagram of the
> pin deck showing where the relationship of the arrows and the pins.
> So heres what I came up with-
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg
>
> This should be pretty close.
It is pretty close. Looks slightly 'off' in the corners. However is it
much better than I could do - am rubbish at drawing stuff out.
if it was me I would use the pit diagram from something like
http://www.bowl.com/Downloads/pdf/USBCequipmanual_sectionII.pdf
and attempt to draw on the arrows.


        
Date: 12 Jul 2007 01:26:20
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
In article <Q0bli.8445$oa7.7757@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net >, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> litefrozen wrote:
> > Well I pulled out the Spec's for the lanes . to see if I could come up with a better diagram of the
> > pin deck showing where the relationship of the arrows and the pins.
> > So heres what I came up with-
> >
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/pinsarrows.jpg
> >
> > This should be pretty close.
> It is pretty close. Looks slightly 'off' in the corners. However is it
> much better than I could do - am rubbish at drawing stuff out.
> if it was me I would use the pit diagram from something like
> http://www.bowl.com/Downloads/pdf/USBCequipmanual_sectionII.pdf
> and attempt to draw on the arrows.

Well I was using USBC equipment manual.

And using those measurements the pins are sitting on the boards theyed be sitting on the pin deck.
(Now the boards dont really run throught the pin deck. They are shown in the diagram just for reference.)

the 7 & 10 pin are 36" apart that places the 10pin on the 2 Board and the 7pin on the 38board.
Also there should 2 3/4 inches, plus/minus 1/4 inch, from the center of the 7 and 10 pin spots to the adjacent side of
the pin deck.
the 8 & 9 are 12" apart that puts the 9 pin on the 14 board and the 8 pin on the 26 board.
the pins are 3" from from the back of the deck. If a tailplank is used that would add another2" for a total of 5".

My drawing doesnt use a tail plank. The circles for the pins are 4.766" in dia. the pin size.

Now the pin deck is supposed to be 41 1/2" wide plus or minus 1/2" which means the deck size can range from
41 to 42". Now I could have shaved off 3/4" from the left side so the edge would be 2 3/4" from the 7pin ctr
but it was not relevent.

The point of the diagram was to show the relationship of the boards with the arrows to the pins. which it did.


         
Date: 12 Jul 2007 01:48:08
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?

> In article <Q0bli.8445$oa7.7757@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> > It is pretty close. Looks slightly 'off' in the corners. However is it
> > much better than I could do - am rubbish at drawing stuff out.
> > if it was me I would use the pit diagram from something like
> > http://www.bowl.com/Downloads/pdf/USBCequipmanual_sectionII.pdf
> > and attempt to draw on the arrows.

Also if your comparing my diagram to the diagram in the Spec manual.

the spec manual one is showing "Pinspots" which are only 2 1/4
inches in diameter not "Pins", so they look farther from the deck edges.

Mine is showing 4.766" diameter "pins"


   
Date: 10 Jul 2007 09:08:59
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
litefrozen wrote:
> In article <4691eeda$0$14969$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Tony R Smith <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
snip

> Note that the
> approach dots and the lane arrows are in line with the pins,
snip

Nice write up. I have to take exception to this statement though.
the arrows do not line up with the pins.
The centre (big) dot does line up with the centre of the head pin but
after that things get progressively 'off'.


    
Date: 10 Jul 2007 13:12:27
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
In article <L0Iki.30443$_14.6428@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net >, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> litefrozen wrote:
> > In article <4691eeda$0$14969$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Tony R Smith <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >
> snip
>
> > Note that the
> > approach dots and the lane arrows are in line with the pins,
> snip
>
> Nice write up. I have to take exception to this statement though.
> the arrows do not line up with the pins.
> The centre (big) dot does line up with the centre of the head pin but
> after that things get progressively 'off'.

It was a interesting article.

But the arrows & dots do line up with the pins. Unless you have some non standard lanes.
Heres a lane diagram with all the markings.

http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/lanes.jpg


     
Date: 10 Jul 2007 14:27:25
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
>
> It was a interesting article.
>
> But the arrows & dots do line up with the pins. Unless you have some non standard lanes.
> Heres a lane diagram with all the markings.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/lanes.jpg

Sorry but those drawing are not those of real lanes. (just look at the
position of the 7 and 10 pins on the lanes for starters)
The maths of this easy.
But any even easier way is to get a set of pins from your friendly
mechanic and set them out in regulation pattern on the approach just in
front of the foul line.

an even even easier way is just to look down the boards from foul line
to pins - aligning your eye behind (say) board 5 or 10)

or even even even easier lay a laser pointer down on the approach along
board 5 - it will not hit the centre of pin 10.

An even even even easier way is to find a good photo of the pin end of
the lane that shows the boards going into the pit in clear detail

If your centre has a walkway along the side of one (or both) of the end
lanes. Get permission (usually a staff only thing) and go down and have
a look.

the no need to leave your chair way.
do the math around the 3 foot triangle of pin (centres).
The pins are one foot apart - to centre of pins.
Your diagram (and the pins line up with arrows theory) has pin 10 on
board 5 and pin 7 on board 35. According to this theory a thirty board
span covers three feet (36 inches).
This makes each board 30 divided by 36 inches wide i.e, exactly 1.2 inches.
There are 39 boards on a lane which would make a lane 46.8 inches in
width. So IF a lane was 46.8 inches in width you would be correct.
In reality a lane is between 41 and 42 inches in width.
I am afraid you theory and your diagram only works on non-regulation lanes.
This arrows and pins line up mistake is more common than it should be.
I have had lane mechanics who have done the job for years swear to me
that the spots in the pin deck line up with arrows.
IIRC Fred Borden quoted that the pins and arrows line up in a book. Did
he ever recant this mistake ?

Footnote:-
7 10 split - confirmation of why this is such a hard shot.
Distance from centre of 7 to centre of 10 is 36 inches. Add to this 4.5
inches (the diameter of a pin at its 'fat middle') and you get 40.5
inches. You add the diameter of one pin to account for the right hand
side of the 10 and the left hand side of the seven.
Regulation lane width is between half an inch and one and a half inches
more. Ever wondered why the outside edges of the 7 10 split look like
they hover on the teeniest outside sliver of the lane ? It is because
they do !
Some thought around the width of a pin (4.5 inches) and the proposed
pins positions in the 'arrows line up with pins theory' will also show
that the arrows do not line up with pins. Only the centre arrow and the
head pin (and the five of course) adhere to this.


      
Date: 11 Jul 2007 01:34:12
From: litefrozen
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
Well after looking at some pin deck photos your right!
The boards the arrows are on do not hit the pins dead center.
they go through the pins but off to either the left or right of center of them except for the 1 &5 pins.

It seems most the diagrams drawn are wrong. they used a pin layout of 30" on center instead of 36".

But in defense of what they wrote they said "in line with the pins" they are just not in line with the pin centers.

I guess the drawers of the diagrams just assume they meant inline with the pin centers.


       
Date: 11 Jul 2007 09:26:24
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
litefrozen wrote:

>
> But in defense of what they wrote they said "in line with the pins"
> they are just not in line with the pin centers.
>
nah, every dot lines up with a different part of the pins. It is just a
(very) common error.

next time you are the lanes just stand on the foul line and rifle the
arrows to the pins. With fresh eyes you will see that it is actually
extremely difficult to come to the conclusion that the pins line up with
the arrows.

> I guess the drawers of the diagrams just assume they meant inline
with the pin centers.

I guess the drawers of the diagrams don't have a clue as to lane
dimensions and regulations - them being secret and so poorly documented
as they are....

Attention to detail is important but lets face it the lane layout is a
fundamental and not an esoteric thing.




     
Date: 10 Jul 2007 10:26:55
From: 6ballman
Subject: Re: Ever think about D.T.T.A. when bowling?
litefrozen wrote:
> In article <L0Iki.30443$_14.6428@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, newsreader <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>
>> litefrozen wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4691eeda$0$14969$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Tony R Smith <tonyrsmith@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> snip
>>
>>
>>> Note that the
>>> approach dots and the lane arrows are in line with the pins,
>>>
>> snip
>>
>> Nice write up. I have to take exception to this statement though.
>> the arrows do not line up with the pins.
>> The centre (big) dot does line up with the centre of the head pin but
>> after that things get progressively 'off'.
>>
>
> It was a interesting article.
>
> But the arrows & dots do line up with the pins. Unless you have some non standard lanes.
> Heres a lane diagram with all the markings.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/bowling/lanes.jpg
>

I have said this before without the (excellent) illustration (tyvm - btw).
Is there an optical illusion at work here that makes people think that
these do not line up?

I do know of one place that has 42 boards instead of 39...I will look
next time to see if they do or do not line up.

--
"...when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity,
the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them.
It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
--Richard Dawkins