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Date: 23 Dec 2004 13:48:22
From: moncho
Subject: Changing Ball Surface
I know that you are not allowed to change the ball surface during league
play by
using sandpaper and such. I currently was told I could not sand my ball
after shadow bowling and the start of the first frame of the first game.

I am just wandering what other leagues determine as the start of league
play.

My answer is league play starts when I, as an indivdiual, throw my first
ball in the first frame of the first game.

Was my league secretary incorrect stating that I cannot alter my ball
after shadow bowling, and before I throw my first ball?

moncho






 
Date: 23 Dec 2004 22:31:41
From: Edward \(300\) DeGraaf
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
Your secretary is flat out WRONG. You can change the surface of any bowling
ball until it is used in sanctioned league play. Your warm-up shots are not
sanctioned league play. The purpose of the warm-up shots is to make sure you
find the correct line to the pocket and to choose the correct ball or the
correct surface. If you get a new ball out of your bag during the middle of
the game, you can alter its surface before you throw it as well.

Edward DeGraaf,
USAB Certified Bronze Level Instructor.
YABA Certified Jr. Olympic Level II Coach.
Latest 300 Game - 09/30/2003.


"moncho" <moncho@NOspamameritech.net > wrote in message
news:G0Ayd.4767$_X7.2034@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>I know that you are not allowed to change the ball surface during league
>play by
> using sandpaper and such. I currently was told I could not sand my ball
> after shadow bowling and the start of the first frame of the first game.
>
> I am just wandering what other leagues determine as the start of league
> play.
>
> My answer is league play starts when I, as an indivdiual, throw my first
> ball in the first frame of the first game.
>
> Was my league secretary incorrect stating that I cannot alter my ball
> after shadow bowling, and before I throw my first ball?
>
> moncho
>




  
Date: 03 Feb 2005 05:40:41
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface

Jack B wrote:
> > If you are asking if people put together loaded teams to try and
win
> > big tournaments, then yes, of course this happens and it's fine.
>
> That was what I was asking. Since the Nationals is an amateur event I
was
> sort of suprized by that.

When I think about teams and nationals I bin them three ways. For
"serious" teams. Obviously a lot of guys bowl together with a very low
chance of winning anything but they have a good time and try hard. I'm
talking about teams that can realistically think about the top 10 and
top 100 placements.

(1) Teams that bowl together every year and have a chance to do well
each time. These are typically teams of strong amateur bowlers that are
held together by a couple guys that bring the teams in each year. These
teams often load up in brackets as well and make money for the sponsor.
Think of teams like the Goike's, some of the Team USA support teams,
teams that are affiliated with a ball manufacturer or other industry
company, that sort of thing.

(2) Teams that consist of pretty good league players that bowl together
each year. Some of these teams have a chance to do well, but other than
being decent you wouldn't think of them to win it all. I think Team
Internet falls into this category. We're there mostly for fun but we're
serious and have a couple teams that could place highly if everything
goes well on a given day. Team 8-ball probably fits into this category
and they won it one year (nice guys too).

(3) Teams that are assembled for a year or two consisting of top
players. Most folks seem to think these teams are put together just to
try and win the event, but in my estimation a bigger part is schedules
fell together and allowed a group of really strong players to bowl
together. These teams generally don't stay together and they generally
don't win it either. Three games times five guys is a crap shoot in any
tornament even for the best players. Plus at nationals you still have
to draw a good pair and it used to really matter who bowled in front of
you as well.


>>>Scotch Brite in towels
> Where did you see this? No one said anything?

Usually league players who think the condition is too oily. Generally
they have no hand and are looking to make their three revs work better
so they sew a scrubbie pad into a towel and "pretend" that it's OK.
I've seen this in Utah and San Diego so it's not rare.

> Before someone says it I know you can used redrilled equipment in
> Regional tourneys, but it is my personal choice to not do so.

I don't use plugged stuff either.

Mark



  
Date: 02 Feb 2005 06:31:55
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface


> I've heard of guys sewing abrasion pads in their towls so they can
scuff the
> surface during play.

I've seen this a couple times but never by an individual I'd consider a
good player. Good players don't need this kind of crap to score and
they don't need the hassle of getting caught. Not with today's
equipment anyway.

> And at one tournament the guy who runs the Ebonite booth ( Bill ? )
was
> telling about the "Ebonite" team that was to come and would walk away
with
> the team event. Del Ballard was suppose to be on that team. Does
anyone else
> know about this kind of thing that goes on? I've heard of this in
other
> sports but not bowling per see.

Not sure what you are asking here - are you suggesting that this team
was somehow altering their ball surfaces during play to gain advantage?
If so, forget about it.

If you are asking if people put together loaded teams to try and win
big tournaments, then yes, of course this happens and it's fine. I
wouldn't expect to see Del on an Ebonite team since he works as a rep
for Roto Grip now though.

Finally, yes, it's Bill in the Ebonite booth. Great guy, really knows
his stuff and he is very entertaining.

Mark



   
Date: 02 Feb 2005 09:31:13
From: Jack B
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
> If you are asking if people put together loaded teams to try and win
> big tournaments, then yes, of course this happens and it's fine. I
> wouldn't expect to see Del on an Ebonite team since he works as a rep
> for Roto Grip now though.

That was what I was asking. Since the Nationals is an amature event I was
sort of suprized by that. At the time Ballard was an Ebonite rep. His wife
was (or maybe still is) on staff as well. As I recall the "Ebonite" team did
not win but finished in the money.

> Finally, yes, it's Bill in the Ebonite booth. Great guy, really knows
> his stuff and he is very entertaining.

When I was chatting with Bill he was telling me he has been responsible for
several of the chemical formulas for the cover stocks at Ebonite.
"Entertaining" is an understatement!

> I've seen this a couple times but never by an individual I'd consider a
> good player.

Where did you see this? No one said anything?

Good players don't need this kind of crap to score and
> they don't need the hassle of getting caught. Not with today's
> equipment anyway.

I agree with you. In fact (I know there are going to be those that disagree
with this) I do not use redrilled balls in league or tournaments with the
exception of balls with new inserts at the same finger or thumb hole
locations. Before someone says it I know you can used redrilled equipment in
Regional tourneys, but it is my personal choice to not do so.

Jack B

"Mark" <twobowlers@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1107354715.755802.180820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>> I've heard of guys sewing abrasion pads in their towls so they can
> scuff the
>> surface during play.
>
> I've seen this a couple times but never by an individual I'd consider a
> good player. Good players don't need this kind of crap to score and
> they don't need the hassle of getting caught. Not with today's
> equipment anyway.
>
>> And at one tournament the guy who runs the Ebonite booth ( Bill ? )
> was
>> telling about the "Ebonite" team that was to come and would walk away
> with
>> the team event. Del Ballard was suppose to be on that team. Does
> anyone else
>> know about this kind of thing that goes on? I've heard of this in
> other
>> sports but not bowling per see.
>
> Not sure what you are asking here - are you suggesting that this team
> was somehow altering their ball surfaces during play to gain advantage?
> If so, forget about it.
>
> If you are asking if people put together loaded teams to try and win
> big tournaments, then yes, of course this happens and it's fine. I
> wouldn't expect to see Del on an Ebonite team since he works as a rep
> for Roto Grip now though.
>
> Finally, yes, it's Bill in the Ebonite booth. Great guy, really knows
> his stuff and he is very entertaining.
>
> Mark
>




   
Date:
From:
Subject:


  
Date: 06 Jan 2005 14:32:16
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
>The bowler used the ball the next
>day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!

Jack,

Of course it passed inspection and could be used the next day. There
was nothing wrong with the ball. The rule that was broken was the
specific ABC tournament rule that nothing except a clean, dry, towel
may be used to clean the ball surface during that tournament session
once the ball passes through the ball check station.

The ABC guys at the tourny did exactly the right thing by enforcing the
tournament rules. In the years we've been going to ABCs we've seen a
lot of bizarre stuff and rules infractions. Used to be a lot of dress
code confusion and every year someone misinterprets the "no drinks"
rule to mean "no alcohol" and they pop open a coke. In every case I've
observed the ABC officials to be accomodating and to try very hard to
make the tournament experience fair and enjoyable.

FWIW, the booth guy that came down and wiped off the pencil marks is
the dude to be steamed at. He should have known the playing rules for
the ABCs and should have cleaned the ball up before delivering it to
the customer.

Mark



  
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From:
Subject:


  
Date:
From:
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Date: 24 Dec 2004 16:59:50
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
> Your secretary is flat out WRONG. You can change the surface of any
bowling
> ball until it is used in sanctioned league play. Your warm-up shots are
not
> sanctioned league play. The purpose of the warm-up shots is to make sure
you
> find the correct line to the pocket and to choose the correct ball or the
> correct surface. If you get a new ball out of your bag during the middle
of
> the game, you can alter its surface before you throw it as well.

Given your Credentials, I ** THANK YOU ** for the instruction/clarification
on this issue. :)




  
Date: 24 Dec 2004 05:35:03
From: ALSPROSHOP
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
>Edward \(300\) DeGraaf" wrote:


>Your secretary is flat out WRONG. You can change the surface of any bowling
>ball until it is used in sanctioned league play. Your warm-up shots are not
>sanctioned league play. The purpose of the warm-up shots is to make sure you
>find the correct line to the pocket and to choose the correct ball or the
>correct surface. If you get a new ball out of your bag during the middle of
>the game, you can alter its surface before you throw it as well.
>

"Rule 18. Altering the surface of a bowling ball by the use of abrasives while
bowling in WIBC/ABC competition is prohibited."
etc. etc.

This is not to start an argument, but is for information purposes only.

This rule does not state "while bowling with it", it states while you are
bowling. From my last conversation with the rules dept in Greendale about this
subject, it was made clear to me that a bowler cannot even go up to the proshop
and sand a ball that had not been used or go out to their car,get a fresh ball
out of the trunk and sand it in the back seat before coming back into the
center.

FWIW, back when I was a PBA member, the balls could be "adjusted " as long as
they had not been on the ball return that squad.

Al Whiteman
Executive Director , Portland Bowling Association
www.pbabowling.com
"Time spent bowling is never deducted from one's life span"




   
Date: 04 Jan 2005 18:04:47
From: Jack B
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group that
had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from one of
the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off the ball.
The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took some
rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him do it and
told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending ball! They
threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from the
other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the next
day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!

Jack B

"ALSPROSHOP" <alsproshop@aol.com > wrote in message
news:20041224003503.07924.00002848@mb-m07.aol.com...
> >Edward \(300\) DeGraaf" wrote:
>
>
>>Your secretary is flat out WRONG. You can change the surface of any
>>bowling
>>ball until it is used in sanctioned league play. Your warm-up shots are
>>not
>>sanctioned league play. The purpose of the warm-up shots is to make sure
>>you
>>find the correct line to the pocket and to choose the correct ball or the
>>correct surface. If you get a new ball out of your bag during the middle
>>of
>>the game, you can alter its surface before you throw it as well.
>>
>
> "Rule 18. Altering the surface of a bowling ball by the use of abrasives
> while
> bowling in WIBC/ABC competition is prohibited."
> etc. etc.
>
> This is not to start an argument, but is for information purposes only.
>
> This rule does not state "while bowling with it", it states while you are
> bowling. From my last conversation with the rules dept in Greendale about
> this
> subject, it was made clear to me that a bowler cannot even go up to the
> proshop
> and sand a ball that had not been used or go out to their car,get a fresh
> ball
> out of the trunk and sand it in the back seat before coming back into the
> center.
>
> FWIW, back when I was a PBA member, the balls could be "adjusted " as long
> as
> they had not been on the ball return that squad.
>
> Al Whiteman
> Executive Director , Portland Bowling Association
> www.pbabowling.com
> "Time spent bowling is never deducted from one's life span"
>
>




    
Date: 01 Feb 2005 16:41:38
From: Jack B
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
I was talking to one of the guys I bowled with at Nationals who remembered
the incident. He said the guy with the ball was in front of him through ball
inspection and the inspectors said something to him about the pencil marks.
He ask them to remove them if it was a problem and they couldn't or
wouldn't. My friend remembers they had suggested he take it back to the
booth where is got it to have them clean it. I guess that is how the whole
thing got started.

You know with the diligence ABC has about equipment you would expect the
same for lane condition and the locals they have monitoring the bowling. But
like you guys have pointed out rules is rules!

I've heard of guys sewing abrasion pads in their towls so they can scuff the
surface during play. I have never seen it but the folk lore is out there.
And at one tournament the guy who runs the Ebonite booth ( Bill ? ) was
telling about the "Ebonite" team that was to come and would walk away with
the team event. Del Ballard was suppose to be on that team. Does anyone else
know about this kind of thing that goes on? I've heard of this in other
sports but not bowling per sey.

Jack B

"Jack B" <elbundo1@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:-9KdnQ2xB4aj1kbcRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group
> that had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from
> one of the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off the
> ball. The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took
> some rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him do
> it and told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending ball!
> They threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from
> the other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the
> next day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!
>
> Jack B
>
> "ALSPROSHOP" <alsproshop@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041224003503.07924.00002848@mb-m07.aol.com...
>> >Edward \(300\) DeGraaf" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Your secretary is flat out WRONG. You can change the surface of any
>>>bowling
>>>ball until it is used in sanctioned league play. Your warm-up shots are
>>>not
>>>sanctioned league play. The purpose of the warm-up shots is to make sure
>>>you
>>>find the correct line to the pocket and to choose the correct ball or the
>>>correct surface. If you get a new ball out of your bag during the middle
>>>of
>>>the game, you can alter its surface before you throw it as well.
>>>
>>
>> "Rule 18. Altering the surface of a bowling ball by the use of abrasives
>> while
>> bowling in WIBC/ABC competition is prohibited."
>> etc. etc.
>>
>> This is not to start an argument, but is for information purposes only.
>>
>> This rule does not state "while bowling with it", it states while you are
>> bowling. From my last conversation with the rules dept in Greendale
>> about this
>> subject, it was made clear to me that a bowler cannot even go up to the
>> proshop
>> and sand a ball that had not been used or go out to their car,get a fresh
>> ball
>> out of the trunk and sand it in the back seat before coming back into the
>> center.
>>
>> FWIW, back when I was a PBA member, the balls could be "adjusted " as
>> long as
>> they had not been on the ball return that squad.
>>
>> Al Whiteman
>> Executive Director , Portland Bowling Association
>> www.pbabowling.com
>> "Time spent bowling is never deducted from one's life span"
>>
>>
>
>




    
Date: 19 Jan 2005 01:45:11
From: ALSPROSHOP
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
>Jack B" elbundo1 wrote:


>At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group that
>had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from one of
>the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off the ball.
>The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took some
>rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him do it and
>told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending ball! They
>threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from the
>other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the next
>day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!
>
>Jack B

The rules at nationals are very clear. Once the ball passes the weight table
you cannot even spit on your ball to remove dirt. Dry towel only. I know, to
some it might seem petty but then the next person would want to use his coke,
then some alcohol, then approved cleaner, then somebody slips in un-approved
cleaner. I suspect the "storm brewing" had to do with language directed
towards the monitor, and that is why the bowler was near removal. I don't
think for one minute, a few bowlers intimidated the lane monitor so he backed
off. I think the bowler himself thought about it and realized it was HIS
mistake.

Unfortunately, only a very small percentage read the rules.

Al Whiteman, Executive Director
Portland Bowling Association




    
Date:
From:
Subject:


    
Date: 19 Jan 2005 02:50:20
From: NimBill
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
>From: "Jack B" elbundo1@comcast.net

>At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group that
>had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from one of
>the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off the ball.
>The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took some
>rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him do it and
>told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending ball! They
>threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from the
>other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the next
>day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!
>
>Jack B

You get into a tournament as intense as Nationals and nothing is forgiven.
Folks not even in the tournament will protest just to have a say.

You figure it out!










    
Date:
From:
Subject:


    
Date: 05 Jan 2005 18:30:36
From: Edward \(300\) DeGraaf
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
This isn't the same thing. Once a ball at the ABC tournament passes
inspection, it is not to have its surface altered in any way. This is a
tournament rule.

In sanctioned league play, you can change the surface of a ball with an
abrasive up until the ball is thrown in sanctioned competition. Practice is
not sanctioned competition. During sanctioned league play, you can use
alcohol at any time.

The ABC was correct in their decision on removing the ball.

Edward DeGraaf,
USAB Certified Bronze Level Instructor.
YABA Certified Jr. Olympic Level II Coach.
Latest 300 Game - 09/30/2003.


"Jack B" <elbundo1@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:-9KdnQ2xB4aj1kbcRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group
> that had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from
> one of the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off the
> ball. The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took
> some rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him do
> it and told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending ball!
> They threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from
> the other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the
> next day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!
>
> Jack B




     
Date: 12 Jan 2005 00:23:47
From: bowldoug
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
correction Edwqrd. Once competition has begun (warmup ended) you cannot
alter the surface of a ball with an abrasive and then use it REGARDLESS of
whether it has been used yet or not.
IE: you cannot sanded and unused ball and then introduce it into play.

--
Douglas Moye
Director Greater Detroit Bowling Association
member of consitution and by-laws committee,
and hearings and rerating committee
secretary Drakeshire Merchant Men,
developing fossil\general pest
"Edward (300) DeGraaf" <edward300@spamwowway.com > wrote in message
news:qOWdnfc0nZ0D5UHcRVn-3A@wideopenwest.com...
>>
> In sanctioned league play, you can change the surface of a ball with an
> abrasive up until the ball is thrown in sanctioned competition. Practice
is
> not sanctioned competition. During sanctioned league play, you can use
> alcohol at any time.
>
> The ABC was correct in their decision on removing the ball.
>
> Edward DeGraaf,
> USAB Certified Bronze Level Instructor.
> YABA Certified Jr. Olympic Level II Coach.
> Latest 300 Game - 09/30/2003.
>
>
> "Jack B" <elbundo1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:-9KdnQ2xB4aj1kbcRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> > At the Nationals in Huntsville there was guy in a pair next to my group
> > that had a ball removed durning the event. He had just purchased it from
> > one of the ball reps and they had not cleaned all the pencil marks off
the
> > ball. The guy gave the ball to the rep durning the event. The rep took
> > some rubbing alchol to remove the marks and one of the monitors saw him
do
> > it and told someone at the ABC booth ... off was taken the offending
ball!
> > They threatened to remove the bowler as well. A little storm brewed from
> > the other bowlers and the ABC guy back off. The bowler used the ball the
> > next day. It passed ball inspection!! Imagine that!
> >
> > Jack B
>
>




     
Date:
From:
Subject:


 
Date: 23 Dec 2004 07:49:56
From: Smokey
Subject: Re: Changing Ball Surface
> Was my league secretary incorrect stating that I cannot alter my ball
> after shadow bowling, and before I throw my first ball?

"Technically" correct as the before-league "practice time" CAN be considered
part of the "Official" League Time.

For "the final word", I suggest contacting your LOCAL ASSOCIATION, see what
they say, then use that as "the Gospel" for your area.

In the meantime, humor your secretary and do all your "surface adjustments"
BEFORE you throw that first shadow "practice" ball. :)