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Date: 21 Feb 2007 11:22:44
From: moncho
Subject: Bad Night
We mostly talk about the good in here, so it is now time to talk about
the bad.

214,215,214 averages in three leagues in three different houses.

Mon. 175, 142 190
Last Night - 143, 187, 248.
Thursday - ?

Well the last two nights have been down right terrible. As a joke to
myself, I'm using all the snow shoveling over the last four days as my
excuse.

In the third game last night, I discovered it was a timing problem.
Took a smaller first step and slowed the ball down from 17 mph to 15.75
mph. All of a sudden I throw the next 7 in a row and everything seems
to be right as rain.

I have been on a major high since the beginning of the year because I
have not had anything lower than a 613 and the last two nights have just
kicked my butt.

I decided to head out for some practice after work and work on my timing
so I don't totally mess up tomorrow night.

Well, that is my sob story..

moncho




 
Date: 22 Feb 2007 14:20:26
From: PromptJock
Subject: Re: Bad Night
> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to complete
> it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back in sync.
>
> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I do
> notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing a
> smidge usually corrects the problem right away.

FWIW, viewing Dick Ritger's "The Perfect Strike Feeling" tape, and
doing the swing and step drills demonstrated in same, might be all you
need to "get your groove back". :)



  
Date: 22 Feb 2007 22:24:17
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Bad Night
PromptJock wrote:
>
> FWIW, viewing Dick Ritger's "The Perfect Strike Feeling" tape, and
> doing the swing and step drills demonstrated in same, might be all you
> need to "get your groove back". :)
>
The Ritger tapes are good. The real life course is better !
An amazing guy - have seen him fix problems in seconds.


   
Date: 23 Feb 2007 11:53:41
From: moncho
Subject: Re: Bad Night
newsreader wrote:
> PromptJock wrote:
>>
>> FWIW, viewing Dick Ritger's "The Perfect Strike Feeling" tape, and
>> doing the swing and step drills demonstrated in same, might be all you
>> need to "get your groove back". :)
>>
> The Ritger tapes are good. The real life course is better !
> An amazing guy - have seen him fix problems in seconds.
Been trying to get to a Ritger camp for about 2 years now. It just
seems that when their dates are set, I have to be somewhere else or I am
low on funds. That darn timing thing again (pun intended).

moncho


 
Date: 21 Feb 2007 11:49:27
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Don't see how a slower ball relates to a timing (gearing problem).
From your description I would politely suggest that this was really
about you not observing the ball reaction as closely as you maybe should
do. With those averages you must have a pretty solid game - assuming it
is not a wall shot in all three houses - so hard to see you carrying
those scores and have a fundamental gearing problem - again assuming the
conditions in all three don't allow those scores with 'handbag' shots.
If it any consolation have the seen the very best around fall for this
and have a spate of rolling too fast. Though to be fair it mostly lasts
less than a game for them.


moncho wrote:
> We mostly talk about the good in here, so it is now time to talk about
> the bad.
>
> 214,215,214 averages in three leagues in three different houses.
>
> Mon. 175, 142 190
> Last Night - 143, 187, 248.
> Thursday - ?
>
> Well the last two nights have been down right terrible. As a joke to
> myself, I'm using all the snow shoveling over the last four days as my
> excuse.
>
> In the third game last night, I discovered it was a timing problem. Took
> a smaller first step and slowed the ball down from 17 mph to 15.75 mph.
> All of a sudden I throw the next 7 in a row and everything seems to be
> right as rain.
>
> I have been on a major high since the beginning of the year because I
> have not had anything lower than a 613 and the last two nights have just
> kicked my butt.
>
> I decided to head out for some practice after work and work on my timing
> so I don't totally mess up tomorrow night.
>
> Well, that is my sob story..
>
> moncho


  
Date: 21 Feb 2007 23:22:45
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night
I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to complete
it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back in sync.

It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I do
notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing a
smidge usually corrects the problem right away.

Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.

"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message
news:blWCh.31895$Fm2.340@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Don't see how a slower ball relates to a timing (gearing problem).
> From your description I would politely suggest that this was really about
> you not observing the ball reaction as closely as you maybe should do.
> With those averages you must have a pretty solid game - assuming it is not
> a wall shot in all three houses - so hard to see you carrying those scores
> and have a fundamental gearing problem - again assuming the conditions in
> all three don't allow those scores with 'handbag' shots.
> If it any consolation have the seen the very best around fall for this and
> have a spate of rolling too fast. Though to be fair it mostly lasts less
> than a game for them.
>
>
> moncho wrote:
>> We mostly talk about the good in here, so it is now time to talk about
>> the bad.
>>
>> 214,215,214 averages in three leagues in three different houses.
>>
>> Mon. 175, 142 190
>> Last Night - 143, 187, 248.
>> Thursday - ?
>>
>> Well the last two nights have been down right terrible. As a joke to
>> myself, I'm using all the snow shoveling over the last four days as my
>> excuse.
>>
>> In the third game last night, I discovered it was a timing problem. Took
>> a smaller first step and slowed the ball down from 17 mph to 15.75 mph.
>> All of a sudden I throw the next 7 in a row and everything seems to be
>> right as rain.
>>
>> I have been on a major high since the beginning of the year because I
>> have not had anything lower than a 613 and the last two nights have just
>> kicked my butt.
>>
>> I decided to head out for some practice after work and work on my timing
>> so I don't totally mess up tomorrow night.
>>
>> Well, that is my sob story..
>>
>> moncho




   
Date: 22 Feb 2007 10:03:16
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Ken Zwyers wrote:
> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to complete
> it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back in sync.
>
> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I do
> notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing a
> smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>
> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>
'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change)
must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your
feet did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that
tend to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
(change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers
who plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in
all probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it
just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of the
swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes with
people who lift into the top of the backswing.

But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.


    
Date: 22 Feb 2007 22:40:01
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night

"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message
news:ETdDh.16999$mn2.9556@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
>> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to complete
>> it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back in sync.
>>
>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I
>> do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing a
>> smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>
>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>
> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.

I don't understand your comment. You're using muscles whenever you swing
your arm. It's not a matter of putting a "brake" on anything. You just
swing your arm with a little less force. If I walk slower, it doesn't mean
that I'm putting a brake on my leg muscles, I'm just not using them as
quicly.

> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too slow
> it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change) must
> have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your feet did.
> that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that tend to fall
> off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers who
> plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in all
> probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
> 'forcing the issue' ?

Depends on your opinion of "forcing the issue". I just make a conscious
effort to limit the height of my backswing a little bit.

> Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it just may be that you get
> your timing back by taking muscles out of the swing especially the false
> deceleration of the swing that comes with people who lift into the top of
> the backswing.
>

I can't see behind my back, so I'm guessing that a smidge is maybe 2-3
inches. I have a tendency to get to the line early. This usually happens
because my backswing is too high, so I'm done sliding before I let go of the
ball. Keeping my backswing from getting too high (in essence shortening my
backswing) keeps me from getting ahead of the ball.

> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.

That's exactly my point. I made a point to say that "I can see where
slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem". I don't know if this
could help newsreader or not without seeing him/her bowl. It was just one
possibility.




     
Date: 22 Feb 2007 22:46:22
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night

"Ken Zwyers" <zeker434@mcleodusa.net > wrote in message
news:45de7007$1@news.mcleodusa.net...
>
> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> news:ETdDh.16999$mn2.9556@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
>>> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to
>>> complete it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back
>>> in sync.
>>>
>>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I
>>> do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing
>>> a smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>>
>> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
>
> I don't understand your comment. You're using muscles whenever you swing
> your arm. It's not a matter of putting a "brake" on anything. You just
> swing your arm with a little less force. If I walk slower, it doesn't
> mean that I'm putting a brake on my leg muscles, I'm just not using them
> as quicly.
>
>> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
>> slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change)
>> must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your feet
>> did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that tend
>> to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
>> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
>> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers who
>> plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in all
>> probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
>> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
>> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
>> 'forcing the issue' ?
>
> Depends on your opinion of "forcing the issue". I just make a conscious
> effort to limit the height of my backswing a little bit.
>
>> Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it just may be that you get
>> your timing back by taking muscles out of the swing especially the false
>> deceleration of the swing that comes with people who lift into the top of
>> the backswing.
>>
>
> I can't see behind my back, so I'm guessing that a smidge is maybe 2-3
> inches. I have a tendency to get to the line early. This usually happens
> because my backswing is too high, so I'm done sliding before I let go of
> the ball. Keeping my backswing from getting too high (in essence
> shortening my backswing) keeps me from getting ahead of the ball.
>
>> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.
>
> That's exactly my point. I made a point to say that "I can see where
> slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem". I don't know if
> this could help newsreader or not without seeing him/her bowl. It was
> just one possibility.
Sorry - it wasn't newsreader that I was referring to. I was referring to
the orginal poster, moncho.




    
Date: 22 Feb 2007 20:40:37
From: Darby
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Ken, the relaxed armswing is very important. I would add that if you start
your ball moving before you take your first step the ball would be ahead of
your feet also. It's best to keep the ball movement in time with the feet.
For the basic four step approach I start my youth bowlers with the ball
movement, "out, down, back, roll" as they move their feet, "one, two, tree,
slide". There are modifications, but that is the basic for timing with new
bowlers.
Dar

"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message news:ETdDh.16999
> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
>> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to complete
>> it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back in sync.
>>
>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I
>> do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing a
>> smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>
>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>
> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too slow
> it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change) must
> have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your feet did.
> that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that tend to fall
> off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers who
> plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in all
> probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
> 'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it
> just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of the
> swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes with
> people who lift into the top of the backswing.
>
> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.




     
Date: 22 Feb 2007 22:44:15
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night
I really don't have a major problem with my armswing or timing. On occasion
it gets a little out of whack, and what I described is usually the answer.
I use a five-step approach, I drop the ball slightly on the first step
(almost a rocking or bouncing motion), and then begin bringing the ball
back. I've been using it successfully for 37 years and currently have a 200
average, so it's working pretty well for me. The average would be even
better if I could ever learn to pick up a 7-pin consistently (I'm a lefty)!
:-)

"Darby" <tenpinhawkeye@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:9dnDh.9349$PD2.3992@attbi_s22...
> Ken, the relaxed armswing is very important. I would add that if you start
> your ball moving before you take your first step the ball would be ahead
> of your feet also. It's best to keep the ball movement in time with the
> feet. For the basic four step approach I start my youth bowlers with the
> ball movement, "out, down, back, roll" as they move their feet, "one, two,
> tree, slide". There are modifications, but that is the basic for timing
> with new bowlers.
> Dar
>
> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:ETdDh.16999
>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
>>> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to
>>> complete it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back
>>> in sync.
>>>
>>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I
>>> do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing
>>> a smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>>
>> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
>> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
>> slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change)
>> must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your feet
>> did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that tend
>> to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
>> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
>> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers who
>> plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in all
>> probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
>> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
>> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
>> 'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it
>> just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of the
>> swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes with
>> people who lift into the top of the backswing.
>>
>> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.
>
>




      
Date: 23 Feb 2007 11:52:06
From: moncho
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Ken Zwyers wrote:
> I really don't have a major problem with my armswing or timing. On occasion
> it gets a little out of whack, and what I described is usually the answer.
> I use a five-step approach, I drop the ball slightly on the first step
> (almost a rocking or bouncing motion), and then begin bringing the ball
> back. I've been using it successfully for 37 years and currently have a 200
> average, so it's working pretty well for me. The average would be even
> better if I could ever learn to pick up a 7-pin consistently (I'm a lefty)!
I hear ya (about the 7)

moncho



> :-)
>
> "Darby" <tenpinhawkeye@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:9dnDh.9349$PD2.3992@attbi_s22...
>> Ken, the relaxed armswing is very important. I would add that if you start
>> your ball moving before you take your first step the ball would be ahead
>> of your feet also. It's best to keep the ball movement in time with the
>> feet. For the basic four step approach I start my youth bowlers with the
>> ball movement, "out, down, back, roll" as they move their feet, "one, two,
>> tree, slide". There are modifications, but that is the basic for timing
>> with new bowlers.
>> Dar
>>
>> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:ETdDh.16999
>>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem. A
>>>> slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to
>>>> complete it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing back
>>>> in sync.
>>>>
>>>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>>>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but I
>>>> do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my backswing
>>>> a smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>>>
>>> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
>>> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
>>> slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this change)
>>> must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before your feet
>>> did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do that tend
>>> to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over the place.
>>> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
>>> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers who
>>> plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in all
>>> probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
>>> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
>>> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or by
>>> 'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but it
>>> just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of the
>>> swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes with
>>> people who lift into the top of the backswing.
>>>
>>> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.
>>
>
>


       
Date: 23 Feb 2007 19:51:52
From: Darby
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Ken, how do you manage to get in five steps when you start the ball back on
the first step? I'm sure it works fine for you, and you have a dependable
rhythmn, but you have to be holding the ball still somewhere in there or you
wouldn't get the five steps completed before the ball was coming off your
hand. I've seen bowlers take a couple quick shuffle steps as the ball hits
the top of a very high backswing. Maybe that's where you pick it up?
Good luck with the 7 pin. I throw straight at most of my spares with a
hard plastic and that takes most of the lane conditions out of it for me.
Dar

----- Original Message -----
From: "moncho" <moncho@NOspmanywhere.com >
> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>> I really don't have a major problem with my armswing or timing. On
>> occasion it gets a little out of whack, and what I described is usually
>> the answer. I use a five-step approach, I drop the ball slightly on the
>> first step (almost a rocking or bouncing motion), and then begin bringing
>> the ball back. I've been using it successfully for 37 years and currently
>> have a 200 average, so it's working pretty well for me. The average
>> would be even better if I could ever learn to pick up a 7-pin
>> consistently (I'm a lefty)!
> I hear ya (about the 7)
>
> moncho
>
>
>
>> :-)
>>
>> "Darby" <
>>> Ken, the relaxed armswing is very important. I would add that if you
>>> start your ball moving before you take your first step the ball would be
>>> ahead of your feet also. It's best to keep the ball movement in time
>>> with the feet. For the basic four step approach I start my youth bowlers
>>> with the ball movement, "out, down, back, roll" as they move their feet,
>>> "one, two, tree, slide". There are modifications, but that is the basic
>>> for timing with new bowlers.
>>> Dar
>>>
>>> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:ETdDh.16999
>>>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>>>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem.
>>>>> A slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to
>>>>> complete it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing
>>>>> back in sync.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>>>>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but
>>>>> I do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my
>>>>> backswing a smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
>>>> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
>>>> slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this
>>>> change) must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before
>>>> your feet did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who do
>>>> that tend to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all over
>>>> the place.
>>>> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
>>>> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers
>>>> who plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in
>>>> all probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
>>>> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
>>>> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or
>>>> by 'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but
>>>> it just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of
>>>> the swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes
>>>> with people who lift into the top of the backswing.
>>>>
>>>> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.
>>>
>>



        
Date: 24 Feb 2007 01:11:56
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Darby:

I don't bring it back on the first step. On the first step, I bring it down
and towards my body, then bring it back up and out a little, and then start
my backswing. It's almost like I drop the ball down, then "bounce" it back
up and out. I don't take shuffle steps, but I don't have a very long stride
until the fifth step.

I actually use a Wine colored U-dot that used to be the backup for my LT-48
about 20 years ago. It goes almost perfectly straight with today's lane
conditions.

"Darby" <tenpinhawkeye@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:sBHDh.1447$u93.143@attbi_s21...
> Ken, how do you manage to get in five steps when you start the ball back
> on the first step? I'm sure it works fine for you, and you have a
> dependable rhythmn, but you have to be holding the ball still somewhere in
> there or you wouldn't get the five steps completed before the ball was
> coming off your hand. I've seen bowlers take a couple quick shuffle steps
> as the ball hits the top of a very high backswing. Maybe that's where you
> pick it up?
> Good luck with the 7 pin. I throw straight at most of my spares with a
> hard plastic and that takes most of the lane conditions out of it for me.
> Dar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "moncho" <moncho@NOspmanywhere.com>
>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>> I really don't have a major problem with my armswing or timing. On
>>> occasion it gets a little out of whack, and what I described is usually
>>> the answer. I use a five-step approach, I drop the ball slightly on the
>>> first step (almost a rocking or bouncing motion), and then begin
>>> bringing the ball back. I've been using it successfully for 37 years and
>>> currently have a 200 average, so it's working pretty well for me. The
>>> average would be even better if I could ever learn to pick up a 7-pin
>>> consistently (I'm a lefty)!
>> I hear ya (about the 7)
>>
>> moncho
>>
>>
>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> "Darby" <
>>>> Ken, the relaxed armswing is very important. I would add that if you
>>>> start your ball moving before you take your first step the ball would
>>>> be ahead of your feet also. It's best to keep the ball movement in time
>>>> with the feet. For the basic four step approach I start my youth
>>>> bowlers with the ball movement, "out, down, back, roll" as they move
>>>> their feet, "one, two, tree, slide". There are modifications, but that
>>>> is the basic for timing with new bowlers.
>>>> Dar
>>>>
>>>> "newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:ETdDh.16999
>>>>> Ken Zwyers wrote:
>>>>>> I can see where slowing the ball down could correct a timing problem.
>>>>>> A slower ball means that the bowler's arm takes a little longer to
>>>>>> complete it's motion. It could be just enough to put one's timing
>>>>>> back in sync.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a similar concept to a problem that I have a tendency to do. My
>>>>>> backswing sometimes gets too high. I don't notice the backswing, but
>>>>>> I do notice that my timing is all off at the line. Lowering my
>>>>>> backswing a smidge usually corrects the problem right away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>> 'Slowing' the arm implies using muscles to put a brake on the swing.
>>>>> provided you can free it up later AND your foot speed was already too
>>>>> slow it can work. But this means the gearing before (making this
>>>>> change) must have been such that the ball got to the foul line before
>>>>> your feet did. that is very rare and easily noticeable as people who
>>>>> do that tend to fall off balance at the lane and lift the ball all
>>>>> over the place.
>>>>> of course this assumes a swing where your let the ball turn the corner
>>>>> (change direction form backwards to forwards) on its own. For bowlers
>>>>> who plant and lift the ball into the top of the backswing (and then in
>>>>> all probabiity hit the downswing very early) then its a different
>>>>> gearing/issue. From your comment I ASS-U-ME that is the case for you ?
>>>>> How do you lower your backswing ? by altering the address position or
>>>>> by 'forcing the issue' ? Not sure what a 'smidge' is in real terms but
>>>>> it just may be that you get your timing back by taking muscles out of
>>>>> the swing especially the false deceleration of the swing that comes
>>>>> with people who lift into the top of the backswing.
>>>>>
>>>>> But hey - without seeing someone bowl its hard to tell anything.
>>>>
>>>
>




        
Date: 23 Feb 2007 23:53:03
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Darby wrote:
> Good luck with the 7 pin. I throw straight at most of my spares with a
> hard plastic and that takes most of the lane conditions out of it for me.
> Dar
>
I suspect that like most lefties he avoids crossing the middle of the
lane and so bowls a much thinner line that consequently has much less
margin for error. It is a lefty trait that is quite common and stuns me
when it is a corner pin pick up. Paradoxically many that do this cross
the lane quite well for the ten ! If I could solve lefty seven pin-itis
I could make money from it !!





         
Date: 24 Feb 2007 01:23:09
From: Ken Zwyers
Subject: Re: Bad Night
Actually, I think that a lot of the problem is in my head. I'm just not
comfortable throwing a straight ball, and I know that I have no leeway to
the left of the pin. I am improving, but I do still have lapses. Actually
I only use a straight ball when I going for a 4-pin, 7-pin, or 4-7, or 2-7.
I hook the ball for the 10-pin, and rarely miss.


"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote in message
news:z7LDh.30873$Da4.28924@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> Darby wrote:
>> Good luck with the 7 pin. I throw straight at most of my spares with
>> a hard plastic and that takes most of the lane conditions out of it for
>> me.
>> Dar
>>
> I suspect that like most lefties he avoids crossing the middle of the lane
> and so bowls a much thinner line that consequently has much less margin
> for error. It is a lefty trait that is quite common and stuns me when it
> is a corner pin pick up. Paradoxically many that do this cross the lane
> quite well for the ten ! If I could solve lefty seven pin-itis I could
> make money from it !!
>
>
>




         
Date: 24 Feb 2007 06:20:09
From: Darby
Subject: Re: Bad Night
I know what you mean. I have a father/son pair of lefties that take turns on
our mixed team. You're right about how they shoot 7 pins as opposed to other
cross lane spares, I wonder why?? They squawk more about 7 pins than the
righties do about 10 pins too. ;)
Dar

"newsreader" <whome@127.0.0.1 > wrote

> Darby wrote:
>> Good luck with the 7 pin. I throw straight at most of my spares with
>> a hard plastic and that takes most of the lane conditions out of it for
>> me.
>> Dar
>>
> I suspect that like most lefties he avoids crossing the middle of the lane
> and so bowls a much thinner line that consequently has much less margin
> for error. It is a lefty trait that is quite common and stuns me when it
> is a corner pin pick up. Paradoxically many that do this cross the lane
> quite well for the ten ! If I could solve lefty seven pin-itis I could
> make money from it !!
>
>
>




  
Date: 21 Feb 2007 13:16:01
From: moncho
Subject: Re: Bad Night
newsreader wrote:
> Don't see how a slower ball relates to a timing (gearing problem).
> From your description I would politely suggest that this was really
> about you not observing the ball reaction as closely as you maybe should
> do. With those averages you must have a pretty solid game - assuming it
> is not a wall shot in all three houses - so hard to see you carrying
> those scores and have a fundamental gearing problem - again assuming the
> conditions in all three don't allow those scores with 'handbag' shots.
> If it any consolation have the seen the very best around fall for this
> and have a spate of rolling too fast. Though to be fair it mostly lasts
> less than a game for them.

2 of the houses are wall shots, the third is a little tougher because we
talk with the owner about using different patterns. I am not saying
that I am a pro by any means, but I do believe I am better than average.
If anyone realizes how spectacular the pro's are, that would be me and
a few others in this group.

Slowing down a bit helps get a bunch of other little things in order
during the course of the delivery too, such as, wrist position and
balance. I guess "slowing down the ball" would be incorrect terminology.
I should have said, I stop trying to throw the ball harder and just
"let it drop", which in turn, slows down the ball speed, helps keep the
wrist in proper position, creates balance so it seems easier to hit my
mark and get some type of typical ball reaction. Make one or two
adjustments from there and wham, here comes consistency in to the
pocket, increasing the percentage of possible strikes resulting in a
possible higher score.

The problem with judging ball reaction is that if your timing is WAY off
(like mine is), then ball reaction is tough to judge due to different
releases and being of my normal mark. Over the past year, I have been
learning more about ball reaction and have been studying axis tilt and
axis rotation in regards to my own bowling ball and style.

moncho


>
>
> moncho wrote:
>> We mostly talk about the good in here, so it is now time to talk about
>> the bad.
>>
>> 214,215,214 averages in three leagues in three different houses.
>>
>> Mon. 175, 142 190
>> Last Night - 143, 187, 248.
>> Thursday - ?
>>
>> Well the last two nights have been down right terrible. As a joke to
>> myself, I'm using all the snow shoveling over the last four days as my
>> excuse.
>>
>> In the third game last night, I discovered it was a timing problem.
>> Took a smaller first step and slowed the ball down from 17 mph to
>> 15.75 mph. All of a sudden I throw the next 7 in a row and everything
>> seems to be right as rain.
>>
>> I have been on a major high since the beginning of the year because I
>> have not had anything lower than a 613 and the last two nights have
>> just kicked my butt.
>>
>> I decided to head out for some practice after work and work on my
>> timing so I don't totally mess up tomorrow night.
>>
>> Well, that is my sob story..
>>
>> moncho


   
Date: 21 Feb 2007 14:56:38
From: newsreader
Subject: Re: Bad Night
moncho wrote:
>
> 2 of the houses are wall shots, the third is a little tougher because we
> talk with the owner about using different patterns. I am not saying
> that I am a pro by any means, but I do believe I am better than average.
> If anyone realizes how spectacular the pro's are, that would be me and
> a few others in this group.
>
> Slowing down a bit helps get a bunch of other little things in order
> during the course of the delivery too, such as, wrist position and
> balance. I guess "slowing down the ball" would be incorrect terminology.
> I should have said, I stop trying to throw the ball harder and just
> "let it drop", which in turn, slows down the ball speed, helps keep the
> wrist in proper position, creates balance so it seems easier to hit my
> mark and get some type of typical ball reaction. Make one or two
> adjustments from there and wham, here comes consistency in to the
> pocket, increasing the percentage of possible strikes resulting in a
> possible higher score.
>
> The problem with judging ball reaction is that if your timing is WAY off
> (like mine is), then ball reaction is tough to judge due to different
> releases and being of my normal mark. Over the past year, I have been
> learning more about ball reaction and have been studying axis tilt and
> axis rotation in regards to my own bowling ball and style.
>
> moncho
>
Suggest that curing the 'way off' gearing between footwork and swing is
is the way to go. It will need three things:-
1) An experienced qualified coach
2) You to do the required works (drills).
3) Your kit will probably need re drilling as it has been set up for a
'way off' release.

the clue is where you describe 'slowing down the first pace'. It may be
that you normally take a first face pace and slow your footwork down
afterwards - but that would very unusual. cadence of steps and length of
steps is a critical factor. As is getting the swing in gear.

With your scores it sounds like some work could open up much higher scoring.
get the physical game sorted then get coaching on lane reading and
adjustments and some very big scores are possible.


    
Date: 21 Feb 2007 13:00:30
From: moncho
Subject: Re: Bad Night
newsreader wrote:
> moncho wrote:
>>
>> 2 of the houses are wall shots, the third is a little tougher because
>> we talk with the owner about using different patterns. I am not
>> saying that I am a pro by any means, but I do believe I am better than
>> average. If anyone realizes how spectacular the pro's are, that would
>> be me and a few others in this group.
>>
>> Slowing down a bit helps get a bunch of other little things in order
>> during the course of the delivery too, such as, wrist position and
>> balance. I guess "slowing down the ball" would be incorrect
>> terminology. I should have said, I stop trying to throw the ball
>> harder and just "let it drop", which in turn, slows down the ball
>> speed, helps keep the wrist in proper position, creates balance so it
>> seems easier to hit my mark and get some type of typical ball
>> reaction. Make one or two adjustments from there and wham, here comes
>> consistency in to the pocket, increasing the percentage of possible
>> strikes resulting in a possible higher score.
>>
>> The problem with judging ball reaction is that if your timing is WAY
>> off (like mine is), then ball reaction is tough to judge due to
>> different releases and being of my normal mark. Over the past year, I
>> have been learning more about ball reaction and have been studying
>> axis tilt and axis rotation in regards to my own bowling ball and style.
>>
>> moncho
>>
> Suggest that curing the 'way off' gearing between footwork and swing is
> is the way to go. It will need three things:-
> 1) An experienced qualified coach
> 2) You to do the required works (drills).
> 3) Your kit will probably need re drilling as it has been set up for a
> 'way off' release.
>
> the clue is where you describe 'slowing down the first pace'. It may be
> that you normally take a first face pace and slow your footwork down
> afterwards - but that would very unusual. cadence of steps and length of
> steps is a critical factor. As is getting the swing in gear.
>
> With your scores it sounds like some work could open up much higher
> scoring.
> get the physical game sorted then get coaching on lane reading and
> adjustments and some very big scores are possible.

The coach is coming soon enough. It is one of those "there never seems
to be enough time" kinda things, but it will come.

moncho